position of the bottom hand during carry

[KYLE ELLIS]

If you are using a closed grip with your top hand, what is the correct way to hold the pole with the bottom hand? Can anyone describe it? And don't respond if you don't know or don't use a free high pole carry.

[baggettpv]

Left hand, Elbow down, hand in the middle of the sternum. Pole resting on the thumb/index finger slot. Hand is the fulcrum and the elbow is always below the hand. Pole tip drops by the raising of the top hand thru the torso.

Rick Baggett
WSTC

[KirkB]

... what is the correct way to hold the pole with the bottom hand? ...

I intentionally held the pole with JUST the thumb of the bottom hand. Not the slot between the thumb and index finger like Rick describes ... JUST the thumb. I only curled my forefinger loosely around the pole to keep it from sliding or rolling off my thumb.

I also think that my elbow was quite a bit higher that what Rick describes. My recollection is that it was parallel to my thumb, but it might have been a LITTLE lower than that.

However, I'm not trying to debate what the CORRECT way is. Rick's a far better coach than me, so maybe I did it all wrong! But I was very happy with how I held it. It seemed like the best way to do it!

I think one clue to the difference is that Rick talks about holding the pole in front of the sternum, whereas mine was held outside of the nipple ... almost to the side of the body. I realize that this is different than what Petrov and Altius advocate. Let's just say that I didn't know any better back in 1969 when Ken Shannon and I developed this technique after watching Isaksson ... without even discussing this with Kjell ... and without referring to any books from any PV gurus back then.

So how would I coach a kid today? I don't know ... but I guess I'd probably "play it safe" by sticking to what Altius recommends in BTB2. I'm not positive tho ... I might have the kid expirement with it more to the side.

More importantly Kyle, I question why you say this ...

If you are using a closed grip with your top hand ...

I can't imagine a free falling pole drop without a high pole carry ... and therefore I can't imagine a closed grip with this high pole carry. How can you close your grip when you're holding the pole so high?

As described in my Bryde Bend thread ... with my top hand, I held the pole loosely in the "slot" formed between my thumb and forefinger ... an OPEN grip. Otherwise, you'd need to contort your arm in a very weird, unnatural position ... wouldn't you?

What does BTB2 ... and by extension Petrov and Altius say about open grip v. closed grip during the high pole carry?

Kirk

[KYLE ELLIS]

... what is the correct way to hold the pole with the bottom hand? ...

I intentionally held the pole with JUST the thumb of the bottom hand. Not the slot between the thumb and index finger like Rick describes ... JUST the thumb. I only curled my forefinger loosely around the pole to keep it from sliding or rolling off my thumb.

I also think that my elbow was quite a bit higher that what Rick describes. My recollection is that it was parallel to my thumb, but it might have been a LITTLE lower than that.

However, I'm not trying to debate what the CORRECT way is. Rick's a far better coach than me, so maybe I did it all wrong! But I was very happy with how I held it. It seemed like the best way to do it!

More importantly Kyle, I question why you say this ...

If you are using a closed grip with your top hand ...

I can't imagine a free falling pole drop without a high pole carry ... and therefore I can't imagine a closed grip with this high pole carry. How can you close your grip when you're holding the pole so high?

As described in my Bryde Bend thread ... with my top hand, I held the pole loosely between my thumb and forefinger ... an OPEN grip. Otherwise, you'd need to contort your arm in a very weird, unnatural position ... wouldn't you?

Kirk

I think you and rick are talking about a simular grip for the bottom hand. Or close to the same. As for the top hand I first used a closed grip 7th grade to 11th grade, then was taught an open grip 12th grade through 5th year in college. But recently I am switching back because I am convinced this is the best way to carry the pole when trying to achieve a free falling pole drop. I am convinced you have more control over the pole, I can take a smaller pole and hold it parallel with my right hand (stronger). I think this extra control/ strength makes the pole carry lighter and most of the weight is in your top hand. It is difficult at first because I had lost flexibility in my wrist, but after a month or so it goes away.

Didn't petrov say if you aren't flexible enough to hold a pole with a closed hand then you aren't flexible enough to pole vault. Let me ask you this Kirk..... Who has the best pole drop, and do they have an open or closed top hand grip?

And for your last question. Isy uses open grip, Bubka used closed.... Both coached by petrov. But I think to carry a 5.30 10.8flex closed is the way to go.

[KirkB]

... Didn't Petrov say if you aren't flexible enough to hold a pole with a closed hand then you aren't flexible enough to pole vault.

To be honest, I didn't know he said that. I've never paid much attention to what type of grip other vaulters used ... except back in the day. Dave Roberts had a low pole carry and a fairly closed grip (I think), and I always thought that the posture of his arms/shoulders was awkward. Having said that, he was extremely flexible in the shoulders, so he could get away with this.

Let me ask you this Kirk..... Who has the best pole drop, and do they have an open or closed top hand grip?

Bubka? Closed?

I actually didn't know this until I read the last part of your post!

... Isy uses open grip, Bubka used closed. Both coached by Petrov ...

Again, I actually didn't know this.

... But I think to carry a 5.30 10.8 flex closed is the way to go.

Perhaps ... going by the way you describe trying both opened and closed ... you and Bubka have more flexibility in your wrists than I had.

But still ... you don't really EXPLAIN why carrying a 5.30 10.8 flex closed is "the way to go". Quite frankly, I don't even know why you mention Bubka's pole flex. Are you inferring that it's significantly heavier to carry than a softer flex?

I only used 16-foot poles (4.90), so I don't know what it would feel like to carry a 5.30 with a 5.18 grip (the grip he used to clear 6.15). But I can assure you that my old Catapole 550+ poles were absolute LOGS! Have you ever hefted one? I don't know the exact weight difference compared to new poles, but they were FAR heavier! And I had no trouble carrying the entire weight of the pole on my thumb and forefinger. Yes ... even during my run, I used my bottom hand only for BALANCE ... well ... almost!

Kirk

[altius]

There is no free falling pole drop - another myth.

[vault3rb0y]

Only if gripping with your whole hand causes you to tense up and not relax would i say that there is any benefit of an open vs. closed grip.

The fact that bubka and isi use different grips shows that petrov didnt find it a big enough deal to change.

[KYLE ELLIS]

There is no free falling pole drop - another myth.

Thank you altius, I forget I must be careful with the terms I use, or how I describe it as it may confuse others. Would saying a high pole carry be a better term?

[KYLE ELLIS]

Only if gripping with your whole hand causes you to tense up and not relax would i say that there is any benefit of an open vs. closed grip.

The fact that bubka and isi use different grips shows that petrov didnt find it a big enough deal to change.

I agree with you also, and obviously this has crossed my mind studying Yelena and Bubka.. But for me personally I use chalk with my grip and when I do pole runs with a larger pole (5m 195lb) it is not secure and I would be very uncomfortable if i had to plant that pole. Yelena uses a sticky grip, which I am not sure how to do... I think the pole is more secure in her hand because it is partly sticking to her hand.

In college I used a sticky with a glove.. It took me along time to find a glove that actually works for polevaulting. But I am not in college anymore so now i can't use one.

[KirkB]

There is no free falling pole drop - another myth.

Altius, if you're referring to a "PERFECTLY free falling pole drop" then I'm inclined to agree with you, since I did "steer" the pole into the box A BIT with my bottom hand. It wasn't TOTALLY weightless ... altho that was my INTENT. On my best jumps, this was HARDLY AT ALL.

But if you're referring to a "SUBSTANTIALLY free falling pole drop" being a myth, then I have to strongly disagree with you ... since my pole drop FELT weightless to me. Not even SUBSTANTIALLY weightless ... WEIGHTLESS.

You can call me an anomoly if you like, but I KNOW what I FELT!

Cheers!

Kirk

[altius]

Again KirkB remember that this section is for beginners - who are certainly going to misunderstand and misapply the notion of a free dropping pole. The pole is never simply free falling under the influence of gravity - it is always controlled even if it may have felt free to you. The images in BTB2 clearly show that Bubka began to lower his pole on his first step and that process continued throughout the run -accelerating at about six steps out.

[KYLE ELLIS]

The reason I bring up this topic is because if your bottom hand drops below your elbow at any point you are carrying the pole wrong, and most likely will initiate your plant wrong. So I wanted to know how to support the pole without this happening.