Tuck&shoot/Petrov

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birdi_gurlie
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Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby birdi_gurlie » Mon May 18, 2009 11:14 pm

What is the difference between the tuck and shoot and the Petrov model?
I have an idea but I'm not sure if it's right.
Also, I've always heard they're different [and they obviously are] but I don't know how.

Can anyone [easily and concisely] explain?


P.S. I'd have put this in one of the technique ones, but I didn't know where it'd go.
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Re: Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby Split » Mon May 18, 2009 11:49 pm

Petrov model emphasizes a strong and quick leg swing, while tuck model has you "load up" the pole as you tuck to make it "shoot" you up as you extend.
Hope it helps...
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Re: Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Tue May 19, 2009 12:40 am

birdi_gurlie wrote:What is the difference between the tuck and shoot and the Petrov model?
I have an idea but I'm not sure if it's right.
Also, I've always heard they're different [and they obviously are] but I don't know how.

Can anyone [easily and concisely] explain?


P.S. I'd have put this in one of the technique ones, but I didn't know where it'd go.



The Petrov model tries to keep the trail leg straight the whole time while the tuck and shoot model tucks it near the end of the swing.

The important thing to remember is that in both models, the trail leg is straight through the bottom of the swing. Lots of beginning and intermediate vaulters tuck into a ball right off the ground. But everyone agrees that it is important to keep the trail leg straight until it is past the chord of the pole. So just try to keep it straight while you swing and you'll be in good shape. I think for most elite vaulters who have a bit of a tuck, it's more of a subconscious thing.

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Re: Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby KirkB » Tue May 19, 2009 12:49 am

While the Petrov Model is the model followed by Bubka and Isi ... and covers everything from the run thru to the bar clearance ... and is fairly well documented in the BTB2 (Beginner to Bubka 2) book, the tuck/shoot model (also sometimes called the Drive Model or the American Model) is quite commonly used by elite US vaulters ... and isn't very well documented (thus it has many variations).

If you compare a vid of an elite Petrov Model vaulter, you'll see ...
1. a free takeoff (take off from a point either directly below, or "out" from plumb line dropping straight down from the top hand).
2. a relatively narrow grip.
3. a very tall plant, reaching both hands as high as possible to increase the angle of the pole to the ground (which in turn allows the pole to rotate towards the pit easier).
4. the pole staying straight until the vaulter's takeoff foot leaves the ground. This is because he's "out" more, and the pole doesn't hit the back of the box until the takeoff foot leaves the ground. Being "under" is considered a serious "flaw", and altho it's fairly common for a Petrover-in-training, it's not intentional.
5. no pressure (or only momentary pressure) applied by the bottom arm on the pole.
6. a long trail leg that stays long at least until it passes the chord of the pole ... and often staying relatively straight with only a bend at the hips.
7. no intentional tuck at all (altho you may see a slight tuck if the vaulter is trying to save a poorly executed vault).
8. an inversion/extension of the body in a "continuous upwards motion" as the pole rotates closer to the pit. In the vid, you will see only one frame (or very few frames) where the vaulter's back is parallel to the ground.
9. a continuation of the extension in unison with the recoil of the pole.

... whereas if you watch an elite tuck/shoot vaulter will see ...
1. a take off from a point "under" (closer to the box than a plumb line dropping straight down from the top hand).
2. a relatively wide grip.
3. a tall plant (with the arms), but with the takeoff foot more flat-footed so as to bend the pole before takeoff. The jump off the ground (after the pole begins to bend) is relatively more forwards than upwards.
4. the pole bend (quite a bit) before the takeoff foot leaves the ground.
5. strong pressure of the bottom arm on the pole throughout the swing/rockback/tuck phases.
6. a shortening of the trail leg relatively early ... often even before the trail leg passes the chord of the pole.
7. an extreme tuck to keep the CoM (Center of Mass) behind the pole (to keep the pole moving towards the pit).
8. a definite pause in the tuck position, while the vaulter waits for the pole to rotate closer to the pit. In the vid, you will see several frames (sometimes as many as a dozen) where the vaulter's back is parallel to the ground.
9. an upwards-shooting of the legs, in unison with a straightening of the torso and the recoil of the pole.

To shorten these differences down to just a few that are most noticable to even novice PV fans, you will notice that (a) the tuck/shoot vaulter pushes (with his bottom arm) constantly thru the swing, whereas a Petrover pushes either just momentarily or not at all; and (b) the tuck/shooter tucks into a "ball" after a short swing; pauses; and then "shoots" out of it; wheras a Petrover continues his swing fluidly ... right thru his inversion/extension without any pause.

There's other aspects of the Petrov Model that I skipped, because they're not always differentiators ... they're often similar to tuck/shooters ... who have emulated certain parts of the Petrov Model (but not others). For example, a high pole carry.

Kirk
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Re: Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Thu May 21, 2009 5:49 pm

way to be concise there kirkb ;).

The tuck and shoot is a technique used when someone doesnt know enough about the petrov model to execute it properly. Even in other models, the vaulters overall goal of adding the most energy into the jump and moving the pole to vertical does not change. When you throw in variables like arm position and action, take off angle, etc.... it turns into a "tuck a shoot" in order to cover the pole.
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Re: Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby VaultPurple » Thu May 21, 2009 6:18 pm

The tuck and shoot is a technique used when someone doesnt know enough about the petrov model to execute it properly.


or they chose not to follow petrov because they believe there is still inovation left to be made in the sport of pole vaulting.... (sometimes atleast)


Kirk made a lot of points when he compared the two but some I dont think are always. 1) You dont have to be under to tuck and shoot and 2) you dont have to use any left arm to tuck and shoot.

In comparison of vaulting styles, if you compare the best petrovers to best tuckers, you will notice the tuckers had really high push offs but used shorter poles, while the petrovers used bigger poles and not quite as much pop off the top.

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Re: Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby powerplant42 » Thu May 21, 2009 7:48 pm

A noteworthy observation. :yes:

This is because the Petrov model focuses on moving the POLE whereas the tuck and shoot model (whatever that is) is more concerned with moving the BODY.

Right?
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Re: Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby VaultPurple » Thu May 21, 2009 11:36 pm

A noteworthy observation.

This is because the Petrov model focuses on moving the POLE whereas the tuck and shoot model (whatever that is) is more concerned with moving the BODY.

Right?


yeah this kinda goes to the theory on weather more energy can be added to the system once you leave the ground. The obvious answer is yes because any foward or upward motion with the body caused by your muscles is adding energy in that direction. The only diffrence is when and where the energy is added by each modle.

In petrov almost all of the extra energy is generated durring the swing. Kind of in the same since as a gymnist on a high bar (they swing really high over the bar and flip without ever really using muscular strength besides that of their swing). The swing of the leg pulls the pole into the pit and then once it passes through the cord of the pole the energy is redirected upward.

In the tuck and shoot method you can almost start it off just like petrov by using a free take off and swinging to the cord of the pole. But instead of continuing the swing past the cord (and helping pull the pole a little more) the vaulter tucks his leg in and inverts backwards while he waits for the pole to start to unbend. Then as the pole unbends the vaulter kind of does a "kip up" where he untucks really fast. This creates a lot of upward energy if you can time it right to untuck right as the pole is flinging you.

My inturputation of why tuck and shoot does not use quite as big of poles because when they tuck at the cord of the pole they can not quite pull as big of a pole into the pit. But petrov does not have quite as much pop because some of the swing is still directed foward as you are inverting but it moves the pole foward better and helps the pole unbend.

my .02

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Re: Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby KirkB » Fri May 22, 2009 12:38 am

VaultPurple wrote: ... if you compare the best petrovers to best tuckers, you will notice the tuckers had really high push offs but used shorter poles, while the petrovers used bigger poles and not quite as much pop off the top.

Yikes! :no:

Bubka?

Whitt?

Tuck/shooters put more energy into the pole ... so they can get on bigger poles ... but have more energy leakage.

Petrovers put less energy into the pole (by not pressing the bottom arm), so they can swing smoother ... in a more continuous motion (less leakage) ... so they can vault higher.

Kirk
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Re: Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby powerplant42 » Fri May 22, 2009 6:56 am

Are you really so sure that all tuck/shooters block with their bottom arm? :confused:
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Re: Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby VaultPurple » Fri May 22, 2009 10:46 am

Yikes! :no:

Bubka?

Whitt?

Tuck/shooters put more energy into the pole ... so they can get on bigger poles ... but have more energy leakage.
Petrovers put less energy into the pole (by not pressing the bottom arm), so they can swing smoother ... in a more continuous motion (less leakage) ... so they can vault higher.


Kirk


As far as the push off I am pretty sure I am along the right lines I just do not have their hand grips or anything to compare. ie. Mack, Dial... but not 100% But if you look at most these guys with the massive push offs they are the 'little guys' of vaulting so there may be some other things that caused it. Looking at Duplantis he had one of the highest push offs ever, but I don't know what model you would really call his vaulting. He just hauled down the runway, and swung his leg so incredibly fast that it almost looked like a tuck but wasn't.

If you ever listen to one of the Petrov gurus on here talk they are constantly saying that the reason for the free take off is to put as much energy into the pole as possible and not into the ground or box. The argument is that by being under you lose energy that could be stored in the pole and put it in the box. The whole point of the free take off is to waist as little energy as possible to the ground and keep it in the pole.

Are you really so sure that all tuck/shooters block with their bottom arm? :confused:

No they do not have to, and most elites do not that tuck and shoot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeDI93A477g
In this video Dial uses tuck and shoot but he is only under by a small amount, he is also not blocking out with his arm. Now i'm pretty sure this is not one of his best jumps so does anyone have a better video of dial?

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Re: Tuck&shoot/Petrov

Unread postby powerplant42 » Fri May 22, 2009 2:25 pm

Right! :yes:

Bottom arm blocking is not synonymous with tucking. :idea:
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka


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