How does your state do it????

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Hickman
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How does your state do it????

Unread postby Hickman » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:24 pm

In the state of Missouri for Track and Field there is a two meet system to make it to State Meet. First state is divided up in to class size based on student population, we have 4 classes. I coach in the largest, class 4. Then they divide all the class 4 school into districts (we have 6) mostly by location the KC schools are lumped together, the St. Louis groups and then a mid Missouri group… To make it to the state meet you have to place in the top 4 at the district meet. Once you have made it to the top 4 of your district meet they lump two districts together and have a sectional meet, once again the top 4 in the sectional meet advance to state.
This is where my problem is, I am under the mind set that at the state meet you want to see the best your state has to offer. But what will happen like it did last year and it looks like again this year is that one sectional (the one I am a coach in) there are 7 male vaulters over 14+ft. So three will have to stay home from the state meet, while from a weaker sectional all 4 vaults might only PR at 10ft and they all would get to go, fair or not?
This is the questions I pose to you coaches, How many state meet are determined this way? Compared to something more like the NCAA where you might have a provisional mark. This is what I had in mind qualifying marks would be determined by the average top 10 marks from the last 5 year, or something to that effect.
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Re: How does your state do it????

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:13 pm

Most states do it like that.

In WA, we have a qualifying mark that can get you in to state, but it has to be achieved at the district/regional meet (whatever meet qualifies you for state). It's the average of the 3rd place at State the past 3 years, so it's usually pretty high, I would love to see it lowered to average of 6th place or whatever. Statewide, in all events, only a handful of athletes get into state on the qualifiers.

In general, I think head to head competition is the fairest way to do things. If you only took the top 16 marks from the season, you open things up to fraud or officials not measuring right (which happens a lot in HS!). If you only took the top marks from the district meets, you penalize the athletes who have bad weather at their meet/a headwind/etc, especially in the sprints where one meet might have a big tailwind, and another meet a big headwind.

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Re: How does your state do it????

Unread postby AVC Coach » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:20 pm

In Arkansas we have qualifying standards for each classification based on the average 3rd place finish in the meet over the past 5 years. These marks can only be reached at "certified" meets (most big meets with serious coordinators certify their meets here).

An athlete can still qualify for state by placing in the top 2-6 (depending on classification) in their conference meet. There are no regionals here.

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Re: How does your state do it????

Unread postby Hickman » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:04 pm

But how do you feel about letting a 14+ student stay home because his meet was stacked while you let in the 9-6, 10ft kid from another. Other than making the average from 3 makes to 6 marks. As college's cost more and more and students need to get their names out to the coaches do you see a need for change or do we just keep sending out tape and making cold calls. Does state just need to be the best 10-20 in each class, I like the idea of having certified meets thoguh out the year that would acount for the bad head, good tail winds. We start our season at the Missouri Univ. Relay not the best time for a PR but something like that in the middle of the season would be a great idea.
What about making the Rules committee and the officials check any qualifying mark in the PV if the height is reached.

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Re: How does your state do it????

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:41 pm

Hickman wrote:But how do you feel about letting a 14+ student stay home because his meet was stacked while you let in the 9-6, 10ft kid from another. Other than making the average from 3 makes to 6 marks. As college's cost more and more and students need to get their names out to the coaches do you see a need for change or do we just keep sending out tape and making cold calls. Does state just need to be the best 10-20 in each class, I like the idea of having certified meets thoguh out the year that would acount for the bad head, good tail winds. We start our season at the Missouri Univ. Relay not the best time for a PR but something like that in the middle of the season would be a great idea.
What about making the Rules committee and the officials check any qualifying mark in the PV if the height is reached.


With the increased reporting of meet results and rankings online, and now that it's wayyy easier to record and send out video, I would say that a good vaulter not making it to state is not going to hurt them nearly as much with colleges as it would have in the past. Who cold calls anymore, you can email any college coach and send them a link to your kid's video on YouTube.

I don't think it's the end of the world if a 14 footer from a good district stays home while a 10 footer from a weak district makes it in. That's just life. Be thankful that you're not in California where they only have one state meet for all classifications, tons of 14-footers stay home there. Tons of 14-footers stay home in Texas too!

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Re: How does your state do it????

Unread postby Barefoot » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:31 am

In California if you make it to state you are eligible for sainthood. It's almost a certainty this year, in the southern section alone, that some male vaulter who has gone 15' during the season will miss the state meet.

In CA SS we currently have nine 15'+ Male vaulters
We have over thirty 14'+ male vaulters to date.
The Southern section is allotted five slots in the State Meet Qualifying round as determined by the section championship, which includes ALL schools regardless of classification in the section. Male Vaulters who Jump 15' at the section championship will receive an at large bid to State prelims.

Here's how we go for boys in D1...

1) Must finish top three in league championship, or jump hard mark of 13' 10" at championship to advance to Southern section prelims D1.

2) Must finish top 9 in D1 prelims to make SS finals.

3) Must finish top 12 in combined (all four classes) SS championshipto advance to Masters meet.

4) Must finish top 5 in SS Masters or jump hard mark of 15' at masters to advance to state prelim.

5) Must finish top 12 at State prelims to make the finals.

That's five meets in a row with no slips to make the State Finals.

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Re: How does your state do it????

Unread postby CowtownPV » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:09 pm

In Texas there are 5 classifications, each class has 32 districts which normally have 6 to 8 schools in each district. The 32 districts are divided into 4 regions.
At your district meet the top three will go to regional meet. 24 in each event at regionals compete for two spots to qualify for state. The state meet then has 8 competitors in each event. The state meet therefore is finals only. Our governing body (UIL) is working on a plan to bring in the best third place finisher at regionals to fill the 9th lane at Austin. Not sure how ties will be broken. The state meet is great for fans since it is all finals but there is often someone getting 3rd in one region who could have one another region. However I don't think marks are a way to qualify for state since the meets are so different around the state.
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Re: How does your state do it????

Unread postby Robert schmitt » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:35 pm

My opinion is after the state qualifier they determine what the 8th or even 6th best mark was from all the state qualifying meets and any one that achieved that at the state qualifier meets(ditrict/sectional) but did not place in the top 2, 3, or 4 still will advance. I kind of feel like if you proved at you state qualifier that you are capable of scoreing at the state meet that year you should be there.
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Re: How does your state do it????

Unread postby Darth Vaulter » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:10 pm

My opinion is after the state qualifier they determine what the 8th or even 6th best mark was from all the state qualifying meets and any one that achieved that at the state qualifier meets(ditrict/sectional) but did not place in the top 2, 3, or 4 still will advance. I kind of feel like if you proved at you state qualifier that you are capable of scoreing at the state meet that year you should be there.


Wisconsin does something similar. There is an "extra qualifier" standard in all events. For example in Division 1 there are 16 Regional qualifying meets. The top four places in each Regional advance to a Sectional. Two Regionals come together in one Sectional so there are 8 competitors in each event -- all finals. The top three finishers in each event advance to the State Meet -- 24 in each event. In addition, any Sectional competitor who beats or matches the 8th best result among the 24 State qualifiers (including the three from his or her Sectional who beat him or her) also gets to go as an "extra qualifier." In theory, if all 8 competitors in a Sectional beat the fifth best height from the other seven Sectionals, all 8 advance to the state meet. The problem under discussion here continues to exist at the Regional meet level. If the top 5 boy vaulters in the state are all in the same Regional, only 4 can advance to the Sectional meet, even of all 5 jumped 17' at Regionals.
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Re: How does your state do it????

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:40 pm

The main problem is you need a rule that works for all events. Kids getting smoking tailwinds in the 100 at one meet, and giant headwinds in another meet is always going to play a bigger role than what the pole vaulters do. Also, for state meets with 16-person fields (I think the most common size), adding extras creates extra prelims heats which totally messes up the schedule... and for 8-person state meets, an extra person can mean finals are not head to head, or extra prelims, which no one wants either.

Remember we are just one event in this giant sport of track and field...

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Re: How does your state do it????

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:52 am

From Divalent:
Since I can't post in the coaches forum, perhaps you can post this in the thread on how athletes qualify into their state meet.

Here's how one qualifies for the State meet in Ga, currently, and with the new plan we were just able to get passed by the GHSA, which goes into effect starting spring 2012 (YEAH!)

In Ga, there are 5 classifications by size, each with 8 regions (average ~10 schools per region). There are separate State meets for the boys and for the girls, with all classifications present (but competing only against others in their classification).

Currently: the top 2 in each event at each Region meet advance to the State meet, for a state field size of 16 per event (per classification).

New plan: Top 4 from each event at each region meet event will advance to one of two Quarterfinal meets (each with athletes from 4 regions), with the top 8 then advancing from each Quaterfinal (per classification) to the State finals (which otherwise will remain the same).

The talent disparity is pretty severe in GA, and it is not unheard of for the 3rd best athlete in the state to not make it to State because the two better ones are also in the same region. We have 9:20 3200M runners failing to advance from their region, while other kids are getting lapped in the event at the State meet. So it looks like we can look forward to having the problem abate to the level the rest of you have to live with when our new plan goes into effect in 2 years.

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Re: How does your state do it????

Unread postby Robert schmitt » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:22 am

Darth Vaulter wrote:
My opinion is after the state qualifier they determine what the 8th or even 6th best mark was from all the state qualifying meets and any one that achieved that at the state qualifier meets(ditrict/sectional) but did not place in the top 2, 3, or 4 still will advance. I kind of feel like if you proved at you state qualifier that you are capable of scoreing at the state meet that year you should be there.


Wisconsin does something similar. There is an "extra qualifier" standard in all events. For example in Division 1 there are 16 Regional qualifying meets. The top four places in each Regional advance to a Sectional. Two Regionals come together in one Sectional so there are 8 competitors in each event -- all finals. The top three finishers in each event advance to the State Meet -- 24 in each event. In addition, any Sectional competitor who beats or matches the 8th best result among the 24 State qualifiers (including the three from his or her Sectional who beat him or her) also gets to go as an "extra qualifier." In theory, if all 8 competitors in a Sectional beat the fifth best height from the other seven Sectionals, all 8 advance to the state meet. The problem under discussion here continues to exist at the Regional meet level. If the top 5 boy vaulters in the state are all in the same Regional, only 4 can advance to the Sectional meet, even of all 5 jumped 17' at Regionals.


I kind of thought that was the way it was when I was in HS in WI.
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