Unprofessional coaching behaviour

[altius]

Is there any way to stop the unprofessional behaviour of coaches who offer advice to athletes in competition, who they do not themselves coach, or even who they may never have seen before that day? This is not only unethical but it betrays a complete lack of understanding of the nature of skilled performance. Whether or not they are 'experts' is beside the point - unless an athlete or the athlete's coach specifically asks for advice it should not be offered. Unless you know what the athlete is trying to do - what model of vaulting they are aiming for - it can only lead to confusion. Unless of course they are absolute beginners who have no idea of what they are trying to do and are already completely confused and who may just need encouragement - but no technical advice!

[rainbowgirl28]

Train your athletes to smile and nod and ignore them. This happens all the time in the US.

I generally don't offer advice to other athletes in a meet, unless they/their coach asks me for it, or if I know them well and have reason to believe it would be well received. And even then, it would almost always be offered after the meet, not in the middle, unless it was a kid with no coach there.

[baggettpv]

I stay away from that one. I have been overheard talking discreetly with another coach about an athletes performance to have come back and bite me in the butt! Leave all that alone! Lost a friendship on that one.

Rick Baggett
WSTC

[drcurran]

See this all the time. What is interesting - it is never (I know never is an absolute) the PV coach who really knows what she or he is talking about who gives advise to someone who is not their athlete. Most often seems to be the "coach" with limited knowledge who is handing out suggestions. I like Becca's advice -"smile, nod, and ignore” !

Dan

[Robert schmitt]

See this all the time. What is interesting - it is never (I know never is an absolute) the PV coach who really knows what she or he is talking about who gives advise to someone who is not their athlete. Most often seems to be the "coach" with limited knowledge who is handing out suggestions. I like Becca's advice -"smile, nod, and ignore” !

Dan

yeah we have one of those. I just kind of laugh b/c my two girls he is always talking to jump higher than any boy on his team. I use it as an opprotunity to talk about the physics of the pole vault and what we are trying to accomplish and why they are able to jump higher than all of their kids.

[CowtownPV]

Last year I had a hard headed kid who didn't listen very well and I guess I told him in practice a couple of times "I know you have been vaulting for 4 years now but I was coaching the vault before you were born." So we are at a meet and this kid from another school starts tell one of my other kids something brillant like "you can bend it more if you will pull down with your right hand" and as soon as I heard my kid say "How long you been vaulting?" I knew what was coming. My coach was coaching before you were born so I think I'll just listen to him!! It is tougher when coaches do it because you want your athletes to be respectful to adults. My personal opionion is there alot of people out there that want to coach everybody else's kids because they want everybody to know how smart they are.

[baggettpv]

What I like is when I get with my coaching friends and we all talk about what we see to each other. That group tho is very small..... We get alot of different views on the same subject.

Rick Baggett
WSTC

[Barefoot]

This topic has been stirring in my brain for a few days.

Altius... are you talking about all levels of competition?

Coaching at the High School level is a mixed bag. Of the seven high schools in our conference, there are three pole vault coaches. Some schools have athletes who go to private coaches, some of whom we never see. At the big meets it is more than likely a vaulter will have no coach present. Even very good high school athletes may exhibit bad or dangerous technique... I'm mainly thinking about deeply under steps, very low, very late plants or planting off to the side, fully pumping the pole as they run... and I'm referring to 3rd and 4th year vaulters. Also we see many kids on poles well below their weight.

I know that I'm not the caliber of coach that Jan Johnson is... But we rarely see Jan in Los Angeles, though we do see his pupils. If a kid is planting off to the right and landing near the standards because of that plant. Am I to say nothing?

I realize this may not be in the spirit of your question, though perhaps it is. I would imagine most HS coaches never had a HS Vault Coach when they themselves vaulted. Many of us may coach for precisely this reason... no one was ever there to catch our step. I am not a professional, despite my coaching stipend. I am an Amateur in the old sense of the word. I imagine the vast majority of high school coaches similarly qualify as amateurs.

I won't normally offer advice because it doesn't seem appropriate to do so, if I do, it is usually after the meet... But I have at times given advice during a meet. Then again, I'm not a professional to begin with... But if there was a pro around the pit, I would probably be wanting him or her to share what he/she sees with my vaulters. I can sort out the value of that advice with my vaulters later. Bad advice (in my opinion) is a teachable moment: "The coach from XYZ HS said I should lock out my bottom arm" "Well... we don't do that, and here's why." Honestly, HS vaulters will get enough bad ideas from modeling the technique of some of the "better" vaulters on the HS scene anyway. One of the things I have always loved about the vault is the communal aspect. Seriously, when was the last time an opposing football coach gave a player advice? Precisely because of this communal nature I encourage my kids to seek out other vaulters and coaches... sometimes they have the answer I myself was looking for, sometimes they don't. But it keeps the athlete coach dialogue going and we sometimes build a better mousetrap.

[altius]

" I encourage my kids to seek out other vaulters and coaches..". Firstly that is a completely different scenario BUT it raises the questions of
A. communication - does the other coach have the same model as you - and do they use the same cues/terms/words to describe what they want the athlete to do - confusion awaits here. What if the other coach has a big rep and the athlete doesnt come to you to discuss what they said but just tries to do it!!
B, How is it possible for a young athlete to change some aspect of their technique in the middle of a competition? - unless it is adjusting the run up - although even here we know that the problem is often a perceptual one as the athlete steers in over the last steps - not a simple of case of moving the run yup in or out. We know how long it takes and athlete to modify their technique in a controlled practice environment - how can they do it in a comp - a time they really should be focusing on 'just doin it". I suspect it is better to commit totally even if you have some problems than come down the runway thinking of the advice you have just been given -especially when it means that you must try to change what you have been doing previously.

Agree with the collegiality - we have a long tradition in OZ where coaches discuss their athletes with other coaches and ask for opinions during competition - and of coaches running clinic for other other coaches. what we have eliminated is the tendency for every man and his dog to wander down and offer athletes who they have never met and do not know - advice on what to change!! It did happen here a long time ago.

However if you feel comfortable with what you are doing and the kids are receptive -and no one gets killed as a result - go for it!!!! Would like to hear of practical solutions for helping kids that turn up without a coach? Finally tell me if these coaches prefer to offer advice to the kid they think is likely to win the comp or to kids who probably do need help. I have always liked the phrase "Victory has a thousand fathers but defeat in an orphan."

[Andy_C]

The desire to help others is always admirable, there's no question about that. The manner of which you do it however, is arguably as important.

Alan is absolutely correct about trying to correct technique in the middle of competition. Especially with youngsters, trying to fill their heads with information during a competition situation will only hinder their performance. Every would be helpful coach needs to have this imprinted in their psyche. "Is this going to be helpful for this person in this situation?"

Yes, you will have your loser coach who wants to show off to everybody that they know everything and will help every person on the field. Then you have your well intentioned coaches who are perhaps not aware of the effects and consequences of their actions. Sometimes it's best not to say anything at all because the only thing you can do is make things worse. And "worse" does not necessarily mean just the athlete's performance, it could be your professional reputation, your professional education/learning (you don't get better through bad practice), your relationships with other coaches, the athlete's safety ect. There are a million different things that a coach needs to concern themselves with. It may be hard, painful even, to stand by and let it go - but the alternative will almost always be worse.

I think it's best to lead by example. If somebody wants to follow you then bless em'. But if they want to stick their head in the sand then whatever. Don't make it your problem because your kids need your undivided attention and effort.


As far as the original post goes, I personally have not encountered this problem because as Alan said, there's sort of an unwritten law in Australia that you do not mess with another coaches' athlete. That's not to say it does not happen. In fact I witnessed it happen earlier this season to somebody from our group. Thankfully my coach/mentor resolved it in a very "direct" manner and things worked out okay. I guess there's no perfect system but Becca's way of approaching it is the way I would go about it as well. It's sensible, non-confrontational, respectful (regardless of whether respect is deserved) and effective. I wouldn't rule out the "Soviet option" however if the coach is being insensible with how they would treat my athletes! ie. would not leave them alone

[Barefoot]

Interesting conversation.

Here's my experience. I can't recall ever having a coach talk to one of my Athletes and say something I felt was wrong, wrong, wrong. I have in fact found that often they have said the same things I have been harping on for a year and my Athlete "hears" it for the first time. But with only 5 years of HS coaching under my belt, its likely I haven't seen the worst. I have met coaches who seem to want their Athletes to not mingle at a meet. They're easy to spot and we just avoid contact with them. But coaching other peoples athletes is not the norm in our circle... it happens, but not often.

But again, I'm not a professional. I get my kids in March and we are done by late May. Do I have any potential California State winners... not likely. But we have had and may get some to State finals on occasion. I have a technical framework I work under, but I don't pretend to know anymore than I do. I learn from other coaches and their kids ALL the time. Since the only time I see these other kids and coaches is at meets... this is a great learning opportunity. In fact, I treat most of our early meets as practice opportunities, focusing on limited goals and not fixating on bar heights. And I hover enough to see and hear what's going on with my kids.

Given my time and knowledge limitations, I need my kids to be students of the sport. I try to lay out a foundation... but ultimately they have to be students of the sport. In the end, they are their own Athletes, not mine. So hearing that other perspective is no worse to me than what they are seeing. At least in the open, with language, I can speak with them about it. What they are getting through observation in some ways concerns me more.

If they get advice which doesn't fit my technical model, we talk about. If they go to camp and come back with something "new", again we talk about it... sometimes their "new" thing works within the frame work we have, sometimes it doesn't... often it is simply different semantics. If the new thing falls clearly outside the model... I do the best I can to work with them or change their stubborn teen-age minds. But if they are serious about the vault, they have 8 months away from me to learn stuff I neither have nor want control over. I need them to be students if they have any hope to be really good or great.

My first job is their safety, and I preach it every day.
My second job is to teach them the best I know how.
My third job is to inspire them... to learn, to develop, to persevere, and to jump with joy in their heart.

If I succeed, then one day they will move on to a college coach who no doubt will use a different language. My goal is that when the day comes and they are jumping without me, they will have the tools to succeed.

Some days I need all the help I can get.

[ashcraftpv]

I generally tell my kids what Becca said, "unless its a coach I tell you to listen to, just say thank you and ignore whatever they said."

There have been a few instances where I have not been able to attend a meet where I've found the list of other schools attending and instructed my kids to find specific coaches and ask them for help. If not, I give one of the other assistants a checklist of things for each kid to watch for and a list of what to in certain situations (raise/lower grip, move standards, switch poles/etc).

If I see a kid with no coach, I'll first ask if they even have a coach. If they do, then I usually only offer advice as it pertains to safety issues (lower your grip, go down a pole, etc). If they don't have vault coach at all, then I try to help them out as best I can.....