highschool pole vault

[loganvaulter]

hey, im new to this site but i am at a dead end right now and need some help.ive been vaulting for a year and a half now and am a junior
im 6ft and weigh 150, right now the poles im on are a 14,6 160 and 170 so im not lacking speed or strength.
the problem i am having is i am sitting in the bucket" or in a V. i have video of myself and other vaulters and the only thing i notice different is that once i get my shin even with my top hand i dont bring my top hand to my hips i just leave it at my shin through the vault never extending and getting upside down. whats odd is that i can do this on a pop up i can look back drop my shoulders and extend , when i do this my focus is pulling my hips up so my top hand is even with them. im probably using some confusing terms here but is it possible that im simply not pulling my hips above my shoulders or is there something else that is stopping me?

[loganvaulter]

and i guess another thing i should ask is how much effort is put into getting the hips over the shinders , or is it just supposed to happen . i read every where not to row" at certain times but are you ever suppose to pull your hips up to your top hand because like i said my top hand always stays parallel with my shin and im in a V shape

[KirkB]

... how much effort is put into getting the hips over the shinders , or is it just supposed to happen . i read every where not to row" at certain times but are you ever suppose to pull your hips up to your top hand because like i said my top hand always stays parallel with my shin and im in a V shape

Yes, it's "just supposed to happen". By that I mean that the more power you can put in your swing down below, the less "muscle work" you have to do to finish your vault. A good swing will just "naturally" swing your hips above your shoulders - without rowing or using much muscle-power at all.

The only time that you should "row" is to salvage an OCCASSIONAL vault with a bad swing, but be careful not to make a habit of this, because it will become a habit that's hard to break. It's much better to just focus on a better swing.

This is easier said than done tho. It's one thing to describe how you SHOULD be doing this, but to actually DO IT is another thing altogether.

Your problem is not unique - this is probably the most classic PV problem there is. Boiled down, it's the "tuck and shoot" technique v. the Petrov Model.

If you haven't already figured out from my posts, Altius' posts, and the posts of many other coaches and elite vaulters that understand this exact issue (you know who you are), you should review some of the threads that describe this issue. Key words to search for are "tuck shoot", "Petrov Model", "shoot to a handstand", "downswing upswing", and on and on. Since you've only posted 3 times, you probably haven't browsed PVP much - but you should!

I will also put in a plug on behalf of Altius that you should study BTB2 and its DVD - since he's going to suggest that anyway.

It's usually helpful to see you vid to understand your problem better, but from your description, I think it's already well-known. However, vids would help, so please post those on the Video Review Forum - if you haven't already done so.

I've also (quite recently) answered similar questions in the "visual cues while vertical" thread here: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28056, so check that out. Try to ignore the fluff and focus on the key questions and the key answers.

It's in the Advanced Technique forum (as are most of my posts), but as Altius will tell you (and I agree), the Petrov Model basics are the same at every skill level. Just skip the "advanced" detail - if you can - until you get the basics working right - once your PR is 5.00+ (16-5). You could get there next year if you train hard!

Here's 4 ideas for you ...

1. Consider using a highbar or rings or a chinup bar to improve your swing. Swing with a good, strong trail leg, swinging your hips above your shoulders. On a chinup bar, you will have to tuck into a ball to finish this drill UNDER the chinup bar, but that's OK - the important part of this drill is to learn to swing your trail leg powerfully enough to raise your hips "naturally".

If you can't do this on a highbar, then I ask you: "How do you expect to do it on a pole, after running full speed down the runway?"

2. Figure out why you can raise your hips on a popup, but not in a real vault. If you can figure that out, maybe you just need to do the same? For one thing, your grip is much lower on a popup. Could that be why it's easier for you? If that's the case, then try lowering your grip on your REAL vaults, and see if you can swing your hips up better. Just an idea. Experiment.

3. Try all your experiments on a highbar (or chinup bar or rings), then on a short run popup, then on a short run with a bend, then (and only then) on a long run REAL vault. Don't expect to learn and apply an idea immediately on a REAL vault - it doesn't work that easily - it takes hard work and step-by-step progression towards REAL vaults.

4. You probably lack "gut strength", so strengthen your stomach muscles by doing at least 50 situps a day, 5 days a week. This will help your swing. Rest only the day before a track meet. Do these in the early morning or late evening so that they don't interfere with your other training (by tiring you out) - you can do situps anywhere. You won't get instant results (it may take a month), but you should feel the benefits of all these situps in time for your important meets in May and June.

Good luck in your Junior season this year!

Kirk Bryde

[loganvaulter]

thanks for the reply , lots of good information . i will look into how to post a few videos and see where that gets me but hopefully in a few days i will have better vaults to show for, today i was massing around with a free take off scene in always a little inside "because it feels better " so i got out a 13 6 175 and i ended up looking a lot better on that pole , i actually cleared 15 with a bungee with out really touching it at all , i dot know if it is easier to get upside down on a shorter pole but it seemed to work for me . and also i only weigh 150 so a 75 really give a lot back in the unbend. i dont have any videos of that but i have a meet in a few days and will hopefully look better . because i dont see how i could get up to 15 ft with out inverting.

on another topic i have gone to a coach for a while now who does indoor over the summer and year round and he has it set up at a gymnastics gym where we can go on rings , high bars and pretty much everything you can think of, it is a really good program , but i can swing up on rings i can do bubkas on a high bar, so on and so forth but i have had trouble moving that into my actual vaults on 14 and 14 6 poles but i think after today's practice that being inside had a lot to do with it , and not having a good swing, because i took a break and tried again at 15 half an hour later and couldn't get it, i came close but i was clearly inside .



thanks for your help

[altius]

"I will also put in a plug on behalf of Altius that you should study BTB2 and its DVD - since he's going to suggest that anyway."

I would never dream of doing such a thing -but I admit it is a good idea. In fact if you live in the right place - of alternatively you can access a private jet - get out west to one my clinics - which incidentally will also involve some of the best coaches in the US!

[altius]

Oh just thought - I don't believe that you can easily learn to invert without daily access to a high bar.

[vquestpvc]

From what I've read, you are so there! Seems the trouble might be, you stop moving through the vault. Let's be clear: there are NO phases in the vault! Vaulting is a continuous actions from the first steps until you clear the bar. Many high school vaulters seem to "flag out" at the top because once they have inverted, they think they're done. So, when I write "you are so there", I mean you just need to continue moving. I read where you wrote that you can do Bubkas' on the high bar. Well, when your shins are at your hands......Bubka! But again, there are no phases. So, as you swing to the piked position you must immediately thrust your hips into the pole while pulling through the pole with your hands. And for this coach, let's clarify something. There are two types of rowing. The first one as noted is bad! Rowing to invert which uses the bottom hand as well shortens the radius of the swing and is less powerful. Speak with your physics teacher regarding this fact. However, as you "thrust your hips" (Bubka), you should be in a position where the pole is bent and much like being in a row boat, you will pull your body upwards with continuous pulling through the pole off the top. Easy, peasy. If you do multiple reps; correctly. My suggestion is that you get on a smaller pole (weight) at a shorter approach so that it slows it down a little and you can work the top part better. Slows it down........just keep moving. Question: are you constantly hitting you bottom arm against the pole when you are inverted?

[KirkB]

Watch how Kaitlyn Merritt Jumps 13-8 here http://youtu.be/b_wfcOOk238 and do the same.

This is from the "New High School Girls Sophomore National Record" thread http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28175 on the High School Forum.

Notice how she gets enough momentum from her takeoff and downswing to get her hips up above her shoulders and extends - in one continuous motion.

No rowing whatsoever - it's all in the swing!

Kirk Bryde

[loganvaulter]

well i have 2 things to add. there are 2 things that are stopping me from inverting consistently and fully. the first is that my take off is inside, if i do a free take off it have much better luck. and also my bottom arm is very weak , it bends so much at the plant that my elbow touches the pole. this is partly because i am inside on my plant a lot. now the next part i am not sure about, i think those 2 things combined add up to a weak and late swing, when i look at video i see that my feet do not go above my top hand untill after the pole has started to unbend where other vaulters who invert better have their feet over their top hands just as the pole reaches its max bend, so the pole helps shoot their hips up. i think because i get my legs up late that it stops momentum because the pole is no longer helping me .would you agree? and also how would i fix this , would a stronger plant and more outside free take off make for a more powerful and earlier swing or is there something else to get my legs up faster?

[KirkB]

Refer back to my 4 suggestions above.

Kirk Bryde

[loganvaulter]

ive done a little mreo reading, i read a few things that said that if you jump after the pole is bent thenn you will be behind the pole as far as timing so that it is unbending before you get inverted, this makes a lot of sence to me , if you jump late the pole had allready started bending where if you do a free take off or at least arnt inside then you will invert sooner relitive to the poles bending , is this right? i think that paired with a stronger take off will give a faster swing and sooner inversion

[loganvaulter]

and also i will always have more room to improve but i am in pretty good shape, i think what is stopping me is more in my take off and plant. i think that is giving me a bad swing for the get go