is there such thing as to much swing
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:27 pm
when "rowing the boat" is it possible to row to hard?
The Pole Vault Community Online
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=41915
vquestpvc wrote: I would, however, disagree that "anything unnatural is passive" because it is more natural to be passive while vaulting than to actively move through the vault. Being active through the vault requires understanding the progressive movements needed and connecting the movements through as many reps as possible with feedback from either a relatively competent coach and/or video.
willrieffer wrote: ... the longer a vaulter can hold near the ideal CG, and keep the swing unprogressed, the more they are going to have to work to get into top position.
willrieffer wrote: This is the same way that the double leg provides a drop to the CG and an advantage illuminated by physics, and yet makes the end swing progression that much more difficult.
willrieffer wrote: Well, I've about figured out that I'm really going to get into it with the Petrov crowd...
willrieffer wrote: ... Bubka may have preached the "free take off" but he did not practice it, at least as far as its described, in that if you simply look at the vids in vault after vault his pole starts bending about as soon as his take off foot hits the ground. I contend from a physics standpoint this is actually preferable as it allows the vaulter to add mechanical/muscle energy to the vault/pole in addition to their take off kinetic energy.
willrieffer wrote: Further, Bubka also was a master manipulator of his position and CG along with his rotational axis as the Petrov model claims although the specific claims are off base in terms of physics.
willrieffer wrote: They retard the hip motion forward, the swing, by use of the arms which is evident in the space created between the vaulter and the pole and the top arm placement to the torso/head, and work to orient the torso as much to the perpendicular as possible. Bubka in fact used the left arm extension to help achieve this, as it is necessary, for if not the swing is progressed. Bubka works very hard to get this position and keep it as long as possible. In slomo you can see how long he actually holds a very still position with the arms and torso while the left leg swings.
willrieffer wrote: ... Bubka may have preached the "free take off" but he did not practice it, at least as far as its described, in that if you simply look at the vids in vault after vault his pole starts bending about as soon as his take off foot hits the ground. I contend from a physics standpoint this is actually preferable as it allows the vaulter to add mechanical/muscle energy to the vault/pole in addition to their take off kinetic energy.
Kirk wrote:I accept that Bubka often took off under, but I don't think that was his intent. Can you explain how an under takeoff adds energy to the vaulter-pole system? I just don't see it. And I see that you've replied to PVStudent's dissertation on pages 3-5 of this thread: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27151&hilit=pvstudent&start=24, so you know that he doesn't see it either. I'll let you two duke this out.
willrieffer wrote: They retard the hip motion forward, the swing, by use of the arms which is evident in the space created between the vaulter and the pole and the top arm placement to the torso/head, and work to orient the torso as much to the perpendicular as possible. Bubka in fact used the left arm extension to help achieve this, as it is necessary, for if not the swing is progressed. Bubka works very hard to get this position and keep it as long as possible. In slomo you can see how long he actually holds a very still position with the arms and torso while the left leg swings.
Kirk wrote:This is the classic "Did he push with the bottom arm or not?" paradox. My assertion is that he did not push, and that his posture on the pole (including the space between the pole and his bottom hand) is generated solely on the basis of the pole bending under the pressure exerted on the top hand (pressure which came from the inertia of his speed at takeoff). I realize that you see this differently, and my intent is not to try to win you over in an argument. Rather, I only wish to point out that this is once again a difference of interpretation. It's difficult to prove one way or the other unless you actually interview Bubka. Vive la difference!
Kirk
Bubka wrote:A. In pole vaulting the crucial factor is how to transfer energy to the pole, through the complete body of the vaulter; the arms, shoulders, hip, back and legs. But, if the pole begins to bend while the vaulter is yet on the ground, it is impossible to transfer the energy, all the energy is lost and goes to the box. The point is how to achieve this? The free take off is a very short period of time, we can say no more than hundreds of a second, going from the end of the take off and the moment in which the tip of the pole reaches the end of the box(ie a Pre-Jump Take-Off). But this very short time makes a big difference that allows the competitor to greatly improve the results. When we begin to bend the pole, while being on the ground, we can see an arched position of the body, on the other hand, if we perform a free take off we can feel the pushing action of the whole body, and we can transfer the speed of the run up and take off.
Additionally, we can increase the angle between the pole and the ground in the moment of taking off. This angle is a very important technical factor, because the bigger this angle the better the result.
But this angle must be achieved with a complete extension of the body, and mainly, keeping that short difference between the full extension of the body and the tip of the pole reaching the end of the box.It is a crucial factor, but at the same time, it is not easy to achieve. During my career, I was able to do it sometimes.”