Lets talk about the plant sequence. all opinions welcome

[VTechVaulter]

Okay here is a little GIF image for you guys to watch and then i want your opinions on the following

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/bmondsch/Sequence.gif

we all know that blocking at the take off is a no no. now these are some pretty elite vaulters, and for a moment coming into the plant, it looks like its gonna block, and then the chest comes in and suddenly the left arm is pressed straight up with the chest driving hard. how do you hit that drive phase..

[bel142]

If i understood the question, this is my thought.

Although it looks like they are going to block them selves out, once the pole his the back of the box, the shoulders rotate up and back, and the body/chest come in so the drive can happen.

I currently am training under a couch that wants my plant to be ahead and in front of me (much like the footage you have provided), so that when I hit the box, my body/chest come in, my shoulders rotate and then the press beguines, this fixes many problems.

At plant/take off, if the top hand is closer to being on top of or even behind the head the body is already in a weak position and the force of being hit by the box pushes the body to be under, this becoming very evident in the hips and core moments after take off, where the core is creating a more acute angle in relevance to the pole.

With the plant out in front (looking like it will block out) the shoulder can rotate and the arms can press up, the chest can get in and the body can be positioned in a much stronger position that will enable the drive... The vaulters shown are able to hold that position, creating more of an obtuse angle in relevant to the pole.

Those are my thoughts, I certainly am not the authority on the topic, and I really hope more posts are put up about this....

Hope that is clear...

[EIUvltr]

I currently am training under a couch

Sounds difficult

[vaultmd]

It's not that hard - that's about as high as I jump right now.

I'm working on getting to the top of the couch by summer.

[bel142]

Clever....

[vault3rb0y]

Bel i agree with what you are saying, but i dont believe that you should have to plant "out" but rather say "up". I think we both agree that the video of the elite jumpers is the correct way to take off. But if we say "keep the pole out in front at take off, then bring your hands over your head" i am just worried a lot of vaulters will not take off with their bodies perpendicular to the ground, in a tall position. They would have their top hand farther out in front of their take off leg (to keep the pole "out in front").

This is not the correct way to take off, because you end up always feeling like you are taking off under, you aren't as tall as possible, and your take off angle tends to be too low. I think it is better we say "take off tall, with your hands over your head". If we keep our hands out it front, i think it actually kills more momentum that you could have, compared to if our bottom arm comes up and almost directly over our head by the time we swing.

Basically, i dont think its really a matter of keeping your arms in front of you, but rather keep a good tall posture with your hands coming over your head. That doesnt mean collapse your arms and let your body relax, causing all the pressure on the pole to be lost. but keep pressure with your shoulders WHILE your hands come over your head. That will keep your hips moving, keep your hands in the right position, and set you up for a powerful swing.

[altius]

Lot of good thoughts in there young man BUT Quote "I think we both agree that the video of the elite jumpers is the correct way to take off. Unquote.

Sorry folks - although you may agree, I dont- although I realise that ones opinion depends on your 'technical model'. All three of the 'elite' vaulters have put an almighty bend in the pole before they leave the ground and Brits for example is taking of 60cms under - both a no no as far as the Petrov model - and efficient vaulting - are concerned.

Your model should always be Bubka. Film will confirm that he takes off with an unloaded pole, from a position either beneath or outside his top hand, hits the pole with both hands -with a relatively narrow grip and drives his chest up throught the opening shoulders - at the same time as the pole is driving his hands back. This action allows him to initiate the bend with the bottom arm but load the pole with the top arm AND then position his body for a long accelerating whip swing around the top hand - specifically it allowed him to increase the amplitude and speed of that whip and so add immense energy to the vaulter pole system in the second phase. Part of the 'magic' came from the stretch reflex caused as the muscles from sternum to take off knee were extended by this action. As you will both appreciate this is a complex set of movements which are difficult to describe with words so take a look at some video - perhaps as you read this description. Any BUBKA film from a good angle will show this but the 6.01 jump in Athens is particularly good.

[OUvaulterUSAF]

-with a relatively narrow grip

What is the approximate length of a relatively narrow grip? For example, I'm 5' 10", what is my relatively narrow grip. Right now I go for about shoulder width apart.

[LHSpolevault]

-with a relatively narrow grip

What is the approximate length of a relatively narrow grip? For example, I'm 5' 10", what is my relatively narrow grip. Right now I go for about shoulder width apart.

perhaps.. closer than 18" apart?

[vault3rb0y]

Altius you are probably right, seeing as how we all strive to be like bubka, the elite jumpers in the GIF probably dont do everything right. But to an untrained eye (or an eye only seeing vaults for 4 years) what is seen is a tall plant, with correct hand position that begins to move behind their heads to set up a powerful swing. Im sure there are details to improve in EVERY vaulter, but to someone like me, basically an intermediate jumper, at first glance it appears they are at least TRYING to do the right things.

[VTechVaulter]

sorry i guess i wasn't clear. i do realize that they are not taking off free, and that bubka does and is what we strive to do. the footage of bubka wasn't a great angle for what i was trying to ask about.

i just struggle with the whole stretch reflex, what you can see in all of their vaults, as well as bubkas, is that at take off, their head is up in their left bicep, when i take off, my head is by my right bicep.. thus not enough chest drive. but when i think about getting my chest forward more, i find i can not pressure the pole AT ALL.. so how do we go about getting both

that is my questions

[altius]

Quote "at first glance it appears they are at least TRYING to do the right things." Unquote.

"At first glance"! This is what PVP is all about - trying to improve the information you get from that first glance!

If you have a technical model - like the Petrov/Bubka model - in your mind's eye you can always see at first glance - well almost always - what is critical in the movement pattern you are watching. So if that model holds that loading the pole before take off is a bad thing, that taking off under -as Brits does, that not maximising pole ground angle at take off - like Brits again - is bad technique -then it is bad technique no matter how high these guys have jumped.

If you want models use Bubka for any element of the vault, Feofanova for her run and take off, Izzy for her work late on the pole. Pyrek or Rogoska also give a pretty good idea of this model as did Tarasov, Gibilisco - Markov at take off and Walker is getting close.

For your own personal improvement you will never go wrong if you try to take off beneath or outside the top hand with an unloaded pole.