Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

Regarding pushing with your bottom arm, which "model" do you agree the most with?

1. Petrov - no push with the bottom arm.
11
48%
2. Petrov - but a little push is OK.
3
13%
3. Non-Petrov - PUSH!
3
13%
4. None of the above (explain).
1
4%
5. Petrov - no push but a little isometric resistance is OK
5
22%
 
Total votes: 23

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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:16 am

Riley, I wish I could tell you exactly what you should do, but as you can see from the 10 pages of posts on this thread, it's not quite that easy. My best advice is to educate yourself, and then draw your own conclusions.

The results of the poll so far are 6 for "no push", 6 for "slight push or pressure", 1 for "push", and 1 for "other". That's a clear 12-1 majority in favor of no "big left arm". However, 14 votes is not a significant sample size, and there are certain biases that the voters have that lean away from "big push".

Primarily, the majority of the athletes and coaches on this board are proponents of the Petrov model (no big push). The reasons for this bias are too involved to discuss right here right now, but you should be aware that there's a distinct difference between the opinions of "believers" in the Petrov model, and "believers" in the "big push".

I suggest you ask your coach - or the coaches that advise you to have a "big left arm" - whether or not they agree with the Petrov model. Once you get that answer, you can make a more educated choice on whether to believe them or not.

Having said that ...

Even though you've read thru 10 pages of discussion, realize that most of the differences of opinion here are whether there's a "slight push", "pressure", or "no push". There have been no posters outspoken about a "big left arm" or "big push".

I believe that the reason for this is that the men's and women's WR holders both follow the Petrov model, and the Laws of Physics overwhelmingly favor the Petrov model.

It surprises me that you say:
Riley Crosby wrote: ... I do not see how I could possibly make it into the bit if I didn't have a rigid left arm to move the pole.

I'm curious why you think that a rigid left are moves the pole? There's so much advice on PVP that disproves that theory.

Perhaps if you explain your reasoning as to why you think the left arm "moves the pole", then we can discuss it some more.

There's one other thread that I'll refer you to (but there's many others). Here: http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=16589&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=bottom+arm&start=24

In particular, read the discussion of Jan 14, 2009, then let's take it from there. I really want to help you, but since it's such a controversial topic, I think you need to draw some of your own conclusions - once you understand the physics of pole vaulting better.

Kirk
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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby golfdane » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:20 am

Riley Crosby wrote:I wish I could get a straight answer, spent about an hour reading almost this whole thread. I am a high school vaulter and every coach I have ever had has told me to have a "big left arm" in other words, pushing the pole towards the pit, or to its vertical. Now, I do not see how I could possibly make it into the bit if I didn't have a rigid left arm to move the pole.
-Riley


You could also spend an hour listening to Petrov explaining the take-off:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1117&hl=en

IMHO, an hour well spent. While your at it, the gymnastics coach at CONI, associate to Petrov, speaks here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2898&hl=en

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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby Riley Crosby » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:43 pm

hey,

i cant imagine not pushing the pole up with my left arm. i picture myself running down the runway and planting the pole, and not pushing with my left arm and the pole not bending enough to get me to a safe landing spot in the pit. it seems like the pole would bend a little bit, but not nearly enough before it unbent. i just dont get it.

i know the world record holders use this model, and for that reason i want to learn the way they do it. ill watch a few videos of them and give it a try on monday.
-Riley
-Riley Crosby

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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby Riley Crosby » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:55 pm

Okay so i just watched a bunch of videos of Isi, and bubka, and i can see the left arm applies no pressure. but when i go to brad walker, and toby stevenson i see something totally different. the americans see to be pushing hard with their bottom hand.
-Riley Crosby

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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:01 pm

Hmmm... Imagine that! ;) Stevenson and Walker may... But does Tim Mack? :idea:

You'll end up gripping higher if you stop blocking, because your swing will be faster.

Agapit says PULL with the bottom arm! Try imagining THAT! :) (But just because it is difficult to imagine does not mean that it's not true...)
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:29 pm

Riley Crosby wrote: i can't imagine not pushing the pole up with my left arm. i picture myself running down the runway and planting the pole, and not pushing with my left arm and the pole not bending enough to get me to a safe landing spot in the pit. it seems like the pole would bend a little bit, but not nearly enough before it unbent. i just dont get it.

Yes, I can see how it sounds counter-intuitive. You have to try this with a very light pole at first, then work your way up to heavier poles as your technique improves, and as you gain confidence that the pole will bend without any bottom arm pressure. And you need a coach to walk you thru it ... a coach that understands and believes in the Petrov model. Trust me - it will bend! :yes:

I encourage you to continue to read and watch - as you're doing. The more information you understand, the better you'll be able to apply it to your technique.

But if you're really serious about pole vaulting, and you want to jump as high as you possibly can, maybe what you need - in addition to educating yourself - is to find a coach that teaches the Petrov model. Maybe there's no one locally that can help you. (Fill out your PVP profile, so we know where you live.) But if there's ever an Alan Launder BTB2 or Rick Baggett camp in your area, you should seriously consider attending. There's also good camps by other reknowned coaches, but beware of any that teach "big bottom arm" technique. (No camps OPENLY promote "big bottom arm" so you have to do some homework on the coaches' PV models to find this out.)

Your observations of Stevenson and Walker are correct. They do more of a "drive vault", aka "American style", and apply significant bottom arm pressure. However, as Walker has progressed over the past few years, I think that he's trying to become more and more of a Petrov or "swing" vaulter - like Hooker and Lukyanenko. It's just that old habits die hard, and you can't change your technique overnight.

In their defense, tho, I will say that these 2 vaulters are superb athletes, and even tho their bottom arm pressure slows down their swing, their swings are still quite "phenomenal" compared to HS or college vaulters. They have adapted quite well to catching up to the pole (i.e. inverting and shooting before the pole fully recoils). Most mere mortals - especially young HS and college vaulters, simply don't have the athleticism to replicate the technique of Walker or Stevenson. You need super strength and super speed.

One could argue that the same might be true of all the other 6.00 vaulters - like Bubka - that followed the Petrov model. But I think that's exactly the point ... if you learn the Petrov model at an early age, you can progress with a "natural swing", so you don't need amazing strength or speed to invert ... it happens as a natural consequence of your swing. e.g. Hooker.

Now, how does this all relate to how the pole bends "naturally"? Well Riley, this has been mentioned elsewhere several times, but I'll mention it again here for your benefit ...

The pole is going to bend whether you press or not. It's relative to the amount of momentum that you've built up in your run and takeoff. The amount of additional bend that you give it by pressing is very, very small.

I'm not even going to quibble here between "no push", "slight push", or "slight pressure". None of these are "big bottom arm", so let's not even quibble about the subtleties of those differences (for now). Just try to understand where most of the force comes from. It comes from your run and jump.

Now, understand that even tho the bottom arm puts an INSIGNIFANCT amount of additional energy into the pole, it TAKES AWAY a SIGNIFICANT amount of "natural swing". Thus, your swing slows down, preventing you from swinging "naturally" to an inverted position, thus preventing you from shooting straight up EARLY ENOUGH (in unison with the recoil of the pole).

So what must a vaulter do if he finds himself in that predicament? Well, he needs to quickly tuck his legs in, rock-back into a "ball" (or cowboy position, or pike - like Walker), PAUSE while the pole rolls to vertical (towards the pit), then shoot up off the top of the pole. That's a lot harder to do - and a lot less energy-efficient - than just swinging naturally.

In Stevenson' 6.00 at Modesto (and in the 2004 Olympics), he's gutsy, gripping at ~5.10 (~16-9) to his pinky. This is a ~1.10 (~44 inch) pushoff, which sounds like a lot, but is actually average compared to other 6.00 vaulters (See: http://www.polevaultpower.com/6mclub.php ). Really, Stevenson vaults high because he has a fast run, so he can grip high. His technique is NOT what gets him that high!

Enough about all that.

Riley, find a coach or camp that teaches the Petrov model, and you will walk thru the proper progression of getting the hang of bending the pole THRU THE TOP HAND, rather than thru the bottom hand. It's only thru this practical experience (self-discovery) that you'll finally realize that the pole will bend "naturally". Then you're on your way ... upwards! The sky's the limit! :yes:

Kirk
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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby Riley Crosby » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:36 pm

WOW! thanks for all the input. you are helping me a lot. I am sure that my coach knows about the petrov model knowing that he is the father of a gold medalist olympian (Nick Hysong) but i do not think that Nick followed the petrov model. Ill keep researching and ill let you guys know how my season is going.

you guys are amazing

-Riley
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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:37 pm

Yes, Hysong is a classic tuck/shooter. Check out this SloMo: http://www.stabhoch.com/pages/20010809_Hysong_585.html

Since he won the Gold in Sydney in 2000, you probably wonder how anybody could possibly be critical of his technique. Same goes for Tim Mack in 2004. Well, I have a LOT of respect for these 2 guys, and what they've done - particularly in winning their Golds. The way I look at it is that they're good - VERY GOOD - but they could be even better if they followed more of the Petrov model.

Swtvault talks about Hysong's technique here: http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15961&p=115942&hilit=nick+hysong#p115942

The thread talks mainly about "dropping the lead knee" (which Hysong does NOT do), but Swtvault interjects this interesting analysis of Hysong's "heavy bottom arm":
swtvault wrote: ... The question we should be asking is what is the underlying factor for him to drop the lead knee, and what is causing it. It is not a technique people strive for or work on....it is simply an act of necessity that is predicated from technical errors. It can be caused by a heavy bottom arm (more horizontal pressure) a negative take-off angle (body angle) a late plant, or many other related things. In my opinion, athletes intuitively feel things being wrong or not quite in place, and they subconsciously make adjustments to overshadow the error. A perfect example is Nick Hysong. He does not have a dynamic swing to vertical, due in part to his extremely heavy left arm. He shortens his swing radius and breaks at the hips because he has to....he has spent too much time adding time to his swing to vertical (left arm pressure.) By breaking at the hips and shortening his swing radius he is just barely able to catch the pole before it reaches vertical. If he did not break at the hips and shorten his swing radius, the pole would certainly unbend and he would miss the ride everytime. If we wanted to, I am sure we could trace the problem back and analyze why he has excessive arm pressure due to another lack of position or balance ...

Riley, I think you're in quandry if you're being coached by Nick's dad. I don't know him or his coaching record, but I'll bet he was quite involved in Nick's success. Not even knowing him, I give his dad the same high respect that I give Nick and Tim.

This is a tough one, since Nick (and by association, his dad) have had so much success. I definitely would not recommend switching coaches. You are very lucky to have him as your coach! And there's SO MUCH MORE to PV training than just this one technical point. Overall - all aspects of coaching considered - I'm sure he's a keeper! But if I were you, I would just talk to him about this, and see whether he's flexible on his opinion re "big bottom arm" or not. Point him to PVP, and ask him what he thinks about all this. :idea:

I wish you the best of luck in your vaulting career, and I hope Mr. Hysong can give you the boost that you're looking for. Good luck! :yes:

Kirk
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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:30 am

Browsing thru some old posts tonight, I came across a couple relevant ones ...

This one was from Apr 25, 2005 on the "Russian Style Pole Vaulting.." thread:
lonestar wrote: DJ - you mentioned lots of great names that have influenced the sport immensely over the years!

One that hasn't been mentioned yet: Wolfgang Nordwig. In my opinion, one of the best early fiberglass swing-style vaulters. Narrow handspread, free takeoff, long fast swing, great lineup covering the pole. A huge contrast to Seagren and Pennel, who were great vaulters using very different models.

Lonestar, I hadn't actually thought of Nordwig as a "swing vaulter" back in the day, but I know what you mean now ... more than ever. Earlier tonight, I'd dug up the Nordwig film (above - but very poor quality), and noticed for the first time that he let his bottom arm collapse.

Quite frankly, I hadn't even thought about that technical issue back in '72 with Nordwig, because I was more infatuated with his unique drop of the lead knee. But he def lets the bottom arm collapse (a good thing), and now that you mention it, he swings thru his rock-back rather than "getting stuck" in it.

He still tucks significantly (a bad thing by today's standards), but he seems to have enough momentum to continue thru to extension, without waiting for the pole to get to vertical. Could it be becuz he applied more energy into the pole by letting his lead knee drop? That's my theory for the moment, but I wish we had better vid of him.

Tonight is actually the first time I've ever seen vid of him. Back in the day, it was always direct line-of-sight, which is rather difficult to slo-mo, rewind, or analyze frame by frame. :D

Honestly, every time I watched him vault, I watched his lead knee and not his hands. I did see his swing, but I had nothing to compare it against, other than my own swing, so I discounted his technique due to his lead knee drop. I failed to notice that he had a crude form of "continuous chain" - cruder than mine, but neverthless quite Petrovy. In hindsight, I didn't watch him with the right pair of eyes.

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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:34 am

And this one about Cranston Hysong goes back even further - all the way back to Dec 11, 2003. The thread is entitled "Who coached histories top HS vaulters" [sic].

There's many other posts about Mr. Hysong on PVP - all good!
wacky274 wrote: I would like to mention Cranston Hysong as one of the better pole vault coaches around. He has, if you know him, he brings out the best from each of his vaulters he has, even though he has not had as much talent as some may want. Regardles he really knows the event extremely well, and is always more than willing to help as long as your willing to work. After all, he did coach Nick Hysong to 17'4.50" in hs, and low and behold, 2000 olympic Gold Medalist. He also coached me to 16' 8.75" and as Mr. Shealy said, an athlete can only go so far without a good coach. I know he definitely pushed me to excell, and without him I wouldnt be where I am now for sure.


You're a lucky guy, Riley! :yes:

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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby Riley Crosby » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:56 pm

Yeah! Cranny coaches me in the summer off season. And my high school coach (on season) is one of the kids that Cranny coached in high school with Nick. So I have some pretty sweet hook ups. I have had a chance to talk with Nick many times.

My high school coach, Coach Scaife, tells me about how their school had a dynasty going. With Nick jumping 17 ( I think) feet and setting the HS state record. Wow, i just realized how lucky I am.

-Riley
-Riley Crosby

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Re: Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

Unread postby dj » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:40 am

good morning

the White brothers, one who was with me at ASU for a short period of time and the twins who went to BYU.

Cranston has done a tremendous job for a very long time.

dj


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