The Plant - Advanced Technique

[altius]

"No mention of a vertical pole carry ... even tho Bubka does this on every jump"

The pole is vertical only as he positions it before he starts to run! Figure 8.2 on page 55 clearly shows an angle of 60/70 degrees as he begins his run up and the following figures -- 8.3.- 8.6 show how the pole is gradually lowered throughout the run.

[KirkB]

The pole is vertical only as he positions it before he starts to run! Figure 8.2 on page 55 clearly shows an angle of 60/70 degrees as he begins his run up and the following figures -- 8.3.- 8.6 show how the pole is gradually lowered throughout the run.

Agreed re pp 56-57.

On pg 55, he's just beginning to rock back on his heels to start his run, so his pole would also still be rotating back to "near vertical". From there, I do agree that it will get back down to the 60/70 degree angle that you refer to. No need to debate this ... we just need to watch his vids! What you see is what it is!

And in "the second part of the run" (according to Petrov), I'm sure that it's down to a "40/60 degree angle", as he says.

I don't question that, I only question the lack of reference of STARTING in a "near vertical" position, or calling it a "vertical pole carry".

To quote Agapit in the Pole Vault Manifesto thread here http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=4622&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=agapit+vertical+pole+carry ...

We observed in the mid 80s all vaulters slowly change to a vertical pole carry “introduced” by Bubka.

But for watching Bubka's vids, anyone reading Petrov's description of his pole carry might not realize that it's a VERTICAL POLE CARRY ... as Agapit and I spell out. Petrov just didn't spell it out ... and he should have ... since it was not yet the most "popular" pole carry method ... that's all.

Kirk

[altius]

" it's a VERTICAL POLE CARRY" I repeat that the pole is only vertical as he sets up - before he starts to run it is already at 70 degrees or below. This is important point because when I work clinics in the USA I meet youngsters who have been told to carry the pole vertically as they run = clearly a mistake which leads to major problems with the plant. Unfortunately I do not have the time to continually debate this point so I am leaving it there.

[dj]

good morning

Petrov..
It is necessary to stress here that the position of the pole and the vaulter/pole system influence the length and pace in the beginning of the acceleration.

Low pole carry in the beginning forces the vaulter to make the first strides more rapid which will result in a fast acceleration, rigidity of the movements and tying-up of the muscles.

Excessively high pole carry in the beginning will make the first strides longer and result in the up-and-down swing of the system’s center of gravity, thus also affecting the smoothness of the approach. In the beginning of the first part the vaulter keeps the pole at 65-75 degrees to the horizon, and by the end, with smooth acceleration he will bring it to 50-60 degrees.

It is preferable to launch into acceleration the single solid vaulter/pole system while controlling it through the left hand. Various changes in the rate of the movements, pole position, irregular running often occur as a result of the vaulters attempts to start run with various jumps, imitating the start in long jump and triple jump). All of this gives rise to so many irregularities and errors that sometimes it is hard to understand the reason for the movements.

Kirk..

I don’t think my thinking here is much different than yours or Petrov’s..

I think what may appear to be indicating a “vertical” pole position is merely the vaulter… “toeing” the mark.(toeing the mark with the takeoff foot ONLY!! I must add.. because it is very important in the “physics” of the correct way to accelerate with a pole in your hands) and lifting the pole to an almost vertical position before it “settles” back into a 70/80 degree position as you prepare to take your first step.. I also believe what I’m trying to describe is in agreement with what Alan is saying.

The next point is the “dropping” of the pole and the position of the left hand/wrist in relationship to the left elbow. I know I indicated it was a “fulcrum” and in reality it is… BUT it is not a “fulcrum” in a way to dictate the “free fall” of the pole or to be the point of rotation of the pole itself.

Let me try and explain by tell this story… in the mid to late 1970’s we, Mike Cotton - Dave Roberts, Will Freeman, Bruce Simpson and all the vaulters training at the University of Florida (Mark Bradley-Canadian included) were entertaining these thoughts..

1. How to carry bigger heavier poles down the runway and get your maximum speed, in other words… how could we “lighten the load” so to speak.

2. How to avoid a late plant.

With number one.. the first thing I did was balance the biggest pole we had on my finger tips in a vertical position and walk around until I lost the balance or got tired.. anyway the point was I could easily balance a 5/6 pound pole for 30 seconds or more in that position. Since it takes less than 3 seconds to run down the runway, how could we get the pole from a near vertical position to the plant position, without the strong leverage of the left grip.. which many times caused the vaulter to lean back, lose speed and plant later.

My answer was… an object falls at 32 feet per second square… so if the tip of the pole is 20 feet high.. (16 foot pole plus 4 feet for the top handgrip at the waist) how long does it take the pole to “drop”, free fall on it’s own? That way you not only “lighten the load” of the pole carry, you some what eliminate a late plant if you start the drop on time.. which we determined was somewhere around your six step “MID”… We started practicing a ‘free’ pole drop on the track planting into a sliding box or actually against a hurdle (of which I attached a board so you had a better plant target, but If you didn’t hit the hurdle in the middle it would slide side ways so we used the sliding box most of the time. I also think Bruce Simpson made the first sliding box where you could add and subtract weight. During that time.

But a free pole drop had to have some type of control.. the wind resistance from the speed of the run could effect the free fall, the wind direction could have a major effect and made the process even more “scary”!

The first thing we did was get the left wrist up to chest high, 10 to 12 inches from the chest and maybe slightly to the right side. This gave us a “guide’ with a loose grip so the pole could "free fall" but with the direction controlled. The next thing was we figured out that if you dropped to late you could accelerate the drop, without changing the run posture, (as long as you kept the left wrist chest high) by bringing the right hand up past the shoulder, ear and head faster. If you planted too early you didn’t have to “catch’ the pole with the left hand, which would cause you to lean back on your run, but you could just slow, very slightly, the right hand going up so the tip didn’t go down to early.

Note: this is being described for a right handed vaulter…

Mike Cotton did everything the best, worked harder at it and had the first “free” pole drop I ever saw. Mike was 5-9.. and a 147 pounds.. he ran pretty well but was using a 16 foot 185 green cat .. pretty good size pole to carry. He knew to compete with Roberts, who was taller and had a 285 power clean, he had to find something.

One day I got pissed at them, he and Will Freeman, because they would put the bar at 16-6 and come down the runway.. relax.. do everything correct and boom.. honestly two and a half and even three feet above the bar. At 16-6 they would “pike’ and touch the crossbar with their toes! Then they would move the bar to 17or 17-6 and “choke” or go to a bigger pole, look like dorks and waste practice.

So on this day they did the same.. Mike with the free poll drop working.. booming 16-6.. wow!! he said put the bar at 17.. I said 17 feet sh@@T”, in my best southern drawl, “put the bar at 18 feet and just “air vault.”

I put the bar at 18.. told Mike to forget where it was..... just jump the way he just jumped..

He came down the runway.. perfect “MID” perfect fast run, totally free pole drop.. I remember the pole looked like it was not even being carried it was moving down the runway by itself and rotated around it’s own central axis (at 8 feet of a 16 foot pole.. not the left hand as the axis point) and was in the box at the correct angle for Mike to “blast” off the runway as if the pole were “waiting” for him to run and grab it.

He popped off the ground and never stopped moving.. he swung to vertical and it looked like he was shot from the end of the pole like a handkerchief from a magicians baton… he was still going up as his hips passed the bar.. he peaked about two feet behind the bar and 2 feet above the bar.. Dave Roberts was doing strides on the track .. and had stopped to watch as Mike came down the runway.. when Mike did that.. Dave turned to me, his eyes wide open in amazement, (I was standing on a Platform across the track so I could see the vault) and said “what the He!! Was THAT” … In all honesty I think it was one of those times for Mike where he hit everything so right and the sensation scared the “bejeevers” out of him.

That was the highest vault I had ever seem, until Volkov’s 18 foot jump in Montréal in 1979.

Mike never could do the same in a meet but he did PR at the relays and won the USATF championships.

I don’t know how this may differ or agree with your view or even Petrov’s… I see it as being what Petrov and Bubka was trying to achieve.

dj

[KirkB]

The term "vertical pole carry" is just a phrase that distinguishes that style of pole carry from the more traditional "lower and to-the-side" pole carry ... whatever that one's called ... but they're two completely different styles.

In Petrov's paper, I was just looking for that keyword phrase (or alternatively for the phrase "high pole carry"), to differentiate it from the traditional carry. In my Bryde Bend thread (Post #9) here ... http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15483&start=12&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit ... I called it a "high pole carry". Same difference.

I fully accept whatever Petrov and Altius say about the pole angle. Mine is just an approximation, as is theirs ...

In the standing position on the runway, the angle of my pole was initially 90° to the ground. I stepped back to my left foot, and then started forwards, with the pole angle becoming perhaps closer to 70°-80°.

There's not much difference in my pole carry vs. Bubka's ... they're just described with different words. The only difference I detect is this ...

Excessively high pole carry in the beginning will make the first strides longer and result in the up-and-down swing of the system’s center of gravity, thus also affecting the smoothness of the approach.

DJ, while this is a little different than what I personally experienced, I doubt that my way is much better. To mitigate the issue of accelerating at the start of my run with a high pole carry, I used a "shock absorber" technique ...

One trick I used on the first couple steps was to hold the pole centered in front of my body by reaching forwards with my top hand. This allowed my top arm to be a bit of a “shock absorber” whilst I was starting my run. Then, for the first few steps, there was slight downwards pressure on the thumb of my bottom hand, and as the pole reached its equilibrium, this pressure eased off. My objective was to keep the pole at an optimum angle, so that its weight was never leveraged - its dead weight (as opposed to its cantilevered weight) was all that I ever felt on my top hand. ...

None of the weight of the pole was ever on the bottom hand (except to initially raise the pole above my head while standing). With the bottom hand, I only kept the pole balanced. If it was falling forwards too fast, I put backwards pressure on my thumb. If it was falling backwards, I put forwards pressure on the palm of my hand. It was essential that I made these minor corrective maneuvers quickly, or the pole would “get away from me”. Once I got the hang of this, I very rarely halted a vault midway thru the run (except if there was a side wind - my worst enemy!). Although my explanation above sounds a little complicated, in reality the pole carry was a simple balancing act, and it was usually consistent – all the way into the pole-drop and plant. ...

I didn't personally find any issues with my "shock absorber' approach at the start of my run ... it worked for me. However, if Petrov and Bubka found that they needed to hold the pole a little lower ... to mitigate this issue ... then that obviously worked too. It's not a big deal either way.

DJ, that's an interesting anecdote about Cotton and Simpson. As you know, I jumped with both of them, but before Mike broke 18', and before Bruce invented the Simplant box. This planting box was manufactured by FibreSport in the 1990s.

The way you describe the "free pole drop" ... keeping the pole balanced in front of you ... gradually letting it fall by gravity alone ... so that it felt weightless is exactly how I FELT it. We can get into all kinds of anlaysis pertaining to exactly what angle it was at exactly how many steps away from takeoff, but the best way to convey this technique is simply to say "let the pole drop freely", or "time the drop so that the pole feels weightless". That's about it.

Kirk

[dj]

hye

agreed...

of course all of us.. including Tully and Bell were taught to start with the pole a little above head high... once we (Bell who i worked with in 1974-75, the crew at Florida from '75 to '79 and then Tully late '82 to '88) started to compare the "free drop" that Cotton had accomplished (but not reproduced very often)..the if's, why and how ..what we saw Dial and some of the smaller guys doing to adjust to big poles... on into the '80's when Bubka hit the scene, it was a little more acceptable and understood.. not that many coaches were working in that direction in the states.. except maybe Bemiller at UT...

not many vaulters or coaches were adhering to the "left wrist higher than the elbow".. but we had started the "left hand under the pole" as a means of carrying the heavier poles.. it was only after reading Petrov that i concluded if you keep the left wrist up it is virtually impossible to plant late, stride out or reach to far with the plant.... you will plant "ok" or not at all.. and if you practice this everyday.. and adhere to it every vault..plus always start with the takeoff foot forward... you will have the correct run by meet time......

dj

[CONNEXE]

Going back to the original paper:
The authors use at several occasions the term "synchronize". It seems to me they want to point out that the planting action has to be synchronized with the natural running action.
At left touch down before takeoff (fig.5) : right elbow furthest behind - right knee highest up.
At takeoff : right knee and left arm upwards.

[dj]

hey

the term "synchronize". It seems to me they want to point out that the planting action has to be synchronized with the natural running action.
At left touch down before takeoff (fig.5) : right elbow furthest behind - right knee highest up.

At takeoff : right knee and left arm upwards.

agree......

the "synchronize" starts with the first step... the reason you start with the takeoff foot toeing the mark and not the opposite, is so the pole is "in-sync".. with the correct corresponding leg, shoulders, pole.. etc.. balanced movement during the approach and pole drop...

try putting the right foot forward for a right handed vaulter and you will see that even if the pole is started in the right position.. as soon as you "step" with the left foot the right grip will move or try to move forward for the correct "balance"... when you are in competition and jacked up.. this movement is more pronounced and makes the vaulter tend to swing the pole..

if you start (for a right handed vaulter) with the left toe on the mark and right foot back.. everything goes together the way Petrov tried to explain it.. and if you keep the left wrist high and drop the pole correctly it is very hard to over stride... or plant late,..

this is the reason Petrov said there should be not skips,, jumps,, movements.. etc.. at the start. He did say walking steps where ok if the vaulter starts in the correct “toeing the mark”, pole grip/hand hold position.

hope this fits what this post is about......

dj

[Tim McMichael]

One of the best things I got from Petrov's first lecture in Reno was the pole carry at the start of the run. It was a difficult lecture to understand because of the translation, but this is what I understood him to say and what I put into practice with immediate results: The pole should be vertical as the vaulter is standing tall, chest up in good balanced posture with the left foot slightly in front of the right. The vaulter then leans back slightly till the left toe comes off of the ground. But the pole stays where it is at. He does not lean it back with him. Then the pole drop begins as the athlete lets it fall smoothly and gently until he can feel the slight building pressure in his left hand pull him forward into his first stride. This method places the pole carry at the proper angle, begins the controlled drop that continues throughout the run, and assures an exact first step in good running posture. I adopted this method at once and it focused my approach. I never had a problem with a wandering step again and stopped even needing a mid mark.

[altius]

Figure 8.2 in BTB2 shows Bubka leaning back, left toe off the ground as Tim describes but the pole is already lowering to 70/80 degrees.

[KirkB]

... The pole should be vertical as the vaulter is standing tall, chest up in good balanced posture with the left foot slightly in front of the right. The vaulter then leans back slightly till the left toe comes off of the ground. But the pole stays where it is at. He does not lean it back with him. Then the pole drop begins as the athlete lets it fall smoothly and gently until he can feel the slight building pressure in his left hand pull him forward into his first stride. This method places the pole carry at the proper angle, begins the controlled drop that continues throughout the run, and assures an exact first step in good running posture. I adopted this method at once and it focused my approach. I never had a problem with a wandering step again and stopped even needing a mid mark.

Ditto. I too had the same experience ... in 1971.

I cannot say exactly what angle my pole was at. I just know it was "balanced". I did have one additional "trick" tho, and that's the pumping of the pole UP AND DOWN a bit as I started my run ... to absorb the shock of starting the run. In DJ's post above, he quotes Petrov, and I mention this "shock absorber" action.

It's not the kind of thing that you can describe in words. You just have to try it to realize what I mean. I suppose I could demo it on a video ... along with my highbar Whip drill.

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

Yes ... but if you carry the pole to the side a bit ... even just a bit ... then you have 2 additional issues to deal with. (a) You need to balance it with BOTH hands, rather than with only the top hand (the one gripping the top of the pole); and (b) when you plant, you're going to have to push the pole sideways a bit to re-align it with the runway and box again. This is extra effort ... and over-complicated, in my experience. By keeping my vertical pole carry straight in line with the box, I only had one plane to worry about. By holding it a bit to the side, this becomes a 3D problem rather than just a 2D problem.

I'm pretty sure that almost every vaulter carries the pole a bit to the side, it's the only comfortable way to keep your shoulders square with the box. When it drops it naturally drops toward the box, there is no need to consciously bring it back that way.

Take a look at some videos of elites from a head-on angle and tell me what you think.