Bottom arm discussion continues...

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Carolina21 » Tue May 12, 2009 12:03 am

From my understanding you hit elastically and finish your takeoff you immediately apply upward pressure. Watch the end of David Butler's reno video. At the end when he is taking questions he talks about this. He says after hitting elastically you immediately apply upward pressure and compares it to a hollow position in gymnastics.


FIRST: I AM NOT AN EXPERT, but.....

As someone who works with David everyday I can tell you this is correct in the sense that is what we practice and what he teaches. The front arm does have a roll in the plant and immediately after according to David who I think would qualify as an expert.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Tue May 12, 2009 12:15 am

Carolina21 wrote:
From my understanding you hit elastically and finish your takeoff you immediately apply upward pressure. Watch the end of David Butler's reno video. At the end when he is taking questions he talks about this. He says after hitting elastically you immediately apply upward pressure and compares it to a hollow position in gymnastics.


FIRST: I AM NOT AN EXPERT, but.....

As someone who works with David everyday I can tell you this is correct in the sense that is what we practice and what he teaches. The front arm does have a roll in the plant and immediately after according to David who I think would qualify as an expert.


I would agree, obviously since I reference him. And my understanding is that he talked to vitaly himself about the action of the arms after the takeoff is complete, and he said "up"...
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Tue May 12, 2009 1:15 am

During take off you should apply pressure upward. Once the swing begins, if you are still pushing with your bottom arm is this not a passive phase, or at least slowing the swing. I am not an expert but i have studied the petrov model quite a bit and from my understanding, pushing with your bottom arm after you finish your take off is a passive phase. Your hands can be UP but does it necessarily mean pushing? In agapits manifesto i thought i remembered him saying that using the bottom arm to push is a passive phase and should be eliminated. Perhaps this was cleared up and i missed it?>

Maybe I am also going crazy as well, but dont insult my intelligence. Much appreciated.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Tue May 12, 2009 1:44 am

vault3rb0y wrote: In agapits manifesto i thought i remembered him saying that using the bottom arm to push is a passive phase and should be eliminated.

Yes Agapit said that. I didn't double-check, but I remember him saying that. I also agree with him 100% on this. :yes:

That's why I'm rather baffled by Isi's interview, since I thought Petrov and Agapit were aligned on this point. :confused:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Tue May 12, 2009 2:29 am

vault3rb0y wrote:During take off you should apply pressure upward.


No, you should be elastic here

Once the swing begins, if you are still pushing with your bottom arm is this not a passive phase


You are not still pushing, because you just came out of an elastic position.

I am not an expert but i have studied the petrov model quite a bit and from my understanding, pushing with your bottom arm after you finish your take off is a passive phase. Your hands can be UP but does it necessarily mean pushing? In agapits manifesto i thought i remembered him saying that using the bottom arm to push is a passive phase and should be eliminated. Perhaps this was cleared up and i missed it?>


How would pushing up be passive? I really dont think you guys understand what I am saying. Watch the videos closer!! During the plant their hands are pushing as high as possible/ during the takeoff until the takeoff is complete the shoulders are elastic and the hands move back with the trail foot/ once the trail foot starts to swing forward upward pressure is applied. Its 3 parts plant (pushing hands up) takeoff (elastic shoulders) initiating swing (upward pressure)

What agapit is referring to is pushing up with the left arm during the takeoff, since the arm is already extended up.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Tue May 12, 2009 10:24 am

OK im glad you put it that way. After reading everything Kyle has written i agree with him. I should have said pushing with the bottom arm as you finish the take off is a passive phase.

As for pushing upwards while coming out of the elastic position, i think it is obviously going to be limited to the length and physical flex of the pole, because it is OK to not have your bottom arm fully extended as you swing on a 14ft pole, and to force it into that position i feel would rob your top hand of absorbing some of the energy of your swing, among other problems.

After understanding what you are saying, Kyle, i think your very first response on this issue was dead on. I'll leave the rest for the experts.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Tue May 12, 2009 12:19 pm

vault3rb0y wrote:OK im glad you put it that way. After reading everything Kyle has written i agree with him. I should have said pushing with the bottom arm as you finish the take off is a passive phase.

As for pushing upwards while coming out of the elastic position, i think it is obviously going to be limited to the length and physical flex of the pole, because it is OK to not have your bottom arm fully extended as you swing on a 14ft pole, and to force it into that position i feel would rob your top hand of absorbing some of the energy of your swing, among other problems.

After understanding what you are saying, Kyle, i think your very first response on this issue was dead on. I'll leave the rest for the experts.


I think you are right, I think the length of the pole will limit how far the left hand comes out, I am just using logic here, because you wouldn't be able to do that on a straight pole. But really I am unsure on this. Also I would think that how far the hands are allowed to travel back would also have an effect on how far they could push back out... But honestly I don't know. I just think the main thing is that the person start their swing with long levers, both trail leg and arms to accelerate their hips rising above their head. Whether the left arm completely extends or not I wouldn't think is important.

And one more thing, I think if you grip too wide this would also have an effect on all of the above.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Fri May 15, 2009 2:35 am

Here are some things that I am considering as I am trying to sort out this riddle for myself.

1. Once the pole starts to bend, the athlete can completely let go with the bottom hand, and if they have enough hand strength to hang on, the loss of the bottom arm will have no influence on the action of the pole.

2. On the other side of the coin, pushing with the bottom arm cannot hurt penetration either, provided the athlete has achieved a free takeoff. They are already off the ground, so the pushing action cannot be forcing them back down the runway, as it would if they were low and under and using the left arm to try to bend the pole while their takeoff foot is still on the ground.

3. In my own experience, although my bottom arm was almost straight at takeoff, I only felt the briefest sensation of my left hand hitting the pole. It was not as though I was straining to keep the pole away from me. My left arm only impacted the pole slightly, almost passively, and then I was pulling with it as hard as I could. And while I was pulling, instead of bending, my arm actually straightened more as the bend of the pole pulled my left hand up and away from me. When I appeared to be pushing on the pole in the middle of the vault, I was doing the exact opposite.

4. When I teach the Petrov pole carry, approach and takeoff to my beginners, they instantly start bending the pole and easily clearing bars with their bottom arms completely collapsed at takeoff. There is an astonishing sequence of photos on page 50 of the first edition of Beginner to Bubka of a girl executing a beautiful vault. At the takeoff her left arm is bent so much that her elbow has actually passed the pole. Her left hand is very nearly touching her right ear. This photo, more than anything I have read or heard, turned my vault world upside down. By everything I understood at that time, that jump from that position at takeoff was impossible, yet there it was.

5. In the beginning of his career, Bubka's bottom arm collapsed nearly as much as the girl in B to B, and he jumped with his standards very close to the box. On most jumps his bottom hand nearly touched the top of his head with the left elbow bent out to the side at a ninety degree angle. Later in his carreer, however, his arm was much straighter at takeoff, and he jumped with the standards farther back.

The upshot of all of this is that I am certain that the bottom arm has nothing to do with beginning or maintaining the bend of the pole. I am also pretty sure, and the interview with Yelana bears this out, that the bottom arm can play some role in the beginning of the vault, and that role changes the bend of the pole and enhances its movement. (I am aware of the apparent contradiction in those two statements, and this highlights the level of confusion and complexity I am struggling with. There is, however, a difference between "beginning" and "maintaining" and "changing" and "enhancing.") I am also pretty sure that this action may begin before takeoff, but only impacts the pole immediately afterward. This influence is slight; remember we are talking about an improvement for a vaulter who is already a multiple world record holder. Obviously, you can beat everybody on the planet without the left arm doing anything at all. So the question remains: if I know what the left arm cannot do, what remains that it CAN do?!

Right now I am just letting all of this percolate around in my mind as I watch and teach and gain experience. I am starting to formulate the shadow of an answer, and it is coming to me along these lines. The bottom arm cannot (in a good jump) be used to make the pole bend, but it can alter the shape of the bend, and It can change the position of the athlete's hips relative to the pole. When the bottom arm is collapsed, the chest and hips come very close to the pole at takeoff, and then as the athlete swings, the pole moves abruptly away as the pole bends and pulls the left hand up and out. Also, the pole bends less acutely at takeoff. However, with the bottom arm straighter at takeoff the athlete's hips start behind the pole and stay there as they begin to swing. The pole also bends more after takeoff with the vaulter's left hand rising significantly above the right.

This is the best video I have found to illustrate what I am talking (incoherently) about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b8OKuHLR68

The music is horrible; I just mute it. The vaults at 0:08, 1:57, and 3:19 are early Bubka and typical of what we saw him doing in the '80s. The vaults at 1:47, 2:56, and 3:13 are late Bubka, and while almost every area of the jump is unchanged, there is a definite difference in his bottom arm. Could this be the change Yelana is working towards? Once again, I still don't know. I'm just thinking out loud.
Last edited by Tim McMichael on Fri May 15, 2009 6:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri May 15, 2009 3:01 am

After talking with Altius through pms and reading Tim's post, and getting an e-mail from coach Butler I think I have miss interpreted this action. From what I gather now is that the hands are pressing up extending through the shoulders, then as the pole hit the hands are still trying to move up but are driven back by the pole. Then as the pole starts to bend away from the athlete the hands move with the pole. And as tim mentioned at this point you could probably let go with th left hand.

My initial interpretation was move hands up, hit elastic, then push the pole back up. But I think this is a mistake.

So what I think now, the hands are moving up through the shoulders, and they never stop moving up until the swing is complete.

5. In the beginning of his career, Bubka's bottom arm collapsed nearly as much as the girl in B to B, and he jumped with his standards very close to the box. On most jumps his bottom hand nearly touched the top of his head with the left elbow bent out to the side at a ninety degree angle. Later in his carreer, however, his arm was much straighter at takeoff, and he jumped with the standards farther back.


Well he also gripped much lower on a straight pole and bent pole. If you straight pole and extend both hands up, not just the right, you should move the pole better. Just from my short experience it seems the higher you can get your left hand above your head during steel vaulting, the higher you can grip. Tim do you think that Bubka got better at this as his career developed and because of this he could grip higher and generate more pole speed???
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Fri May 15, 2009 3:11 am

Without a doubt he got better. Check out his last WR outdoors and compare it to the jump at 0:08 in the video from my last post. He was 19 years old when he made that first vault to win the '83 World Championships.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egDUZ_cQ ... re=related

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Fri May 15, 2009 4:11 am

Tim McMichael wrote: 2. On the other side of the coin, pushing with the bottom arm cannot hurt penetration either, provided the athlete has achieved a free takeoff. They are already off the ground, so the pushing action cannot be forcing them back down the runway, as it would if they were low and under and using the left arm to try to bend the pole while their takeoff foot is still on the ground.

Tim, could you kindly reconsider this particular point?

It's an interesting proposition that a free takeoff combined with a bottom arm push cannot hurt penetration. But ...

Much more typically, vaulters that push with their bottom arm are under on their takeoff. I do agree that there's a vast difference between pushing against the ground to load the pole, and pushing in mid-air.

However, the way I think about a mid-air push is that it will indeed bend the pole more, but at the expense of slowing down the swing. The energy at issue must go one place or the other. Either it goes into the pole as potential energy, or it improves the swing.

In the former scenario the pole will bend more (or the athlete will bend a heavier pole), but he'll be "late" (or "later") in completing his swing.

In the latter scenario, the energy will be retained as kinetic energy, allowing the athlete to invert quicker (and extend with more vigor), at the expense of less bend (or the athlete will only bend a lighter pole).

As you can imagine ... as a Petrovian ... I prefer the latter scenario ... as that sets the athlete up for an early, vigorous and continuous extension. To me, this meets the "continuous chain" criteria better than the former scenario.

My main point is that altho a free takeoff would relieve the athlete from loading the pole before takeoff, it doesn't totally eliminate the negative aspects of a bottom arm push. :idea:

I possibly even suggest that a free takeoff with a bottom arm push is a bad combination for a couple reasons ... (a) the athlete gets less "leverage" in his push because he has nothing to push against ... and (b) if a free takeoff is achieved, then even before the athlete gets a CHANCE to push, the pole will begin to move out of the way ... and make any bottom arm action totally unnecessary ... due only to the force from the top hand. I'm on thin ice here in this paragraph, since I've never once intentionally loaded the pole before takeoff. But for what it's worth, it's another consideration for you.

In HS, I HAVE actually had a free takeoff and THEN pushed on the pole, but my technique was so screwed up in HS that it's hardly worth considering. But I think if you had the proper top hand action to force the pole to bend (as opposed to my screwed up HS technique), then I think (b) would apply as described above.

Tim, as you always do, please contemplate my position and see if it draws any light on your quandry. :yes:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby dj » Fri May 15, 2009 4:08 pm

hye

Reference this IAAF article by Petrov

http://www.iaaf-rdc.ru/eng/docs/pub/0001e.html


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