Bottom arm discussion continues...

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Fri May 15, 2009 11:02 pm

DJ, can you be more specific? Which points in Petrov's paper relate to which points in this thread?

And what are you suggesting? :confused:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Sun May 17, 2009 12:26 am

The left arm is not trying to bend the pole; it plants it firmly towards the bar and then transfers the effort to the right hand, so that the pole is bent by the impact of the vaulter’s speed and mass. The vaulter, alert to the resilience of the pole, must perform all the subsequent actions on the pole as on a rigid support.



I think this is what he is referring to, you plant high towards the bar, then all the pressure should go into the top hand. So the left hand should not resist.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Sun May 17, 2009 6:53 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote:
The left arm is not trying to bend the pole; it plants it firmly towards the bar and then transfers the effort to the right hand, so that the pole is bent by the impact of the vaulter’s speed and mass. The vaulter, alert to the resilience of the pole, must perform all the subsequent actions on the pole as on a rigid support.



I think this is what he is referring to, you plant high towards the bar, then all the pressure should go into the top hand. So the left hand should not resist.


It must, however, be fully extended when the pole hits the back of the box. Yelena's bottom arm is still bent about 45 degrees at takeoff, and she is under. Maybe this is what she was talking about in the video.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sun May 17, 2009 7:56 pm

I must disagree... All you have to do is look on the inside cover of BTB2 to see what the bottom arm should look like at pole-strike.

Unless I've misinterpreted what you were saying?
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Mon May 18, 2009 1:34 pm

You are right. I probably need to clarify. I am dealing with four layers of presentation: Petrov's article, my interpretation, Yelena's interview, and my writing. Not easy. When I say "fully extended" of course I mean with the elbow to the outside and slightly bent, which allows the shoulders the flexibility to penetrate in under the bottom hand. Thanks for pointing out the imprecision in my last post. There are some phrases that I am trying to eliminate from my coaching because they are too easy to misinterpret. "Fully extended" may end up being one of them, at least in terms of the plant. :o

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Sun May 24, 2009 1:23 am

I have been reading over old posts trying to further understand the petrov model. Tonight I read over Agapits swing post, there was a very good discussion about the action of the left arm. Before the fighting. Read to about page 7 or so.

Here is the interesting part. Petrov described the action of the left hand as -The left arm is not trying to bend the pole; it plants it firmly towards the bar and then transfers the effort to the right hand, so that the pole is bent by the impact of the vaulter's speed and mass. http://www.iaaf-rdc.ru/eng/docs/pub/0001e.html

But he says nothing about the action of the left arm after the takeoff!!

Agapit believes that you should begin pulling immediately with the left after the takeoff is complete.

I'm not sure what Alan thinks, but i quote him "The ideal take off is one...where both hands are driven up as hard and as high as possible. The athlete should have the feeling that this high punch of the hands continues after take off"

And David Butler talks about in his video of an upward pressure (or hollow position) immediately following take off. Which I would assume would be followed by an immediate down pressure??

It seems as though many of those involved in this great discussion are angry and don't post on PVP anymore. And I would definately consider all 3 coaches followers of the Petrov model. So in conclusion from what these 4 coaches have said and what yelena says in her video I am confused as hell about this phase of the vault!!! What are we to do unless Bubka or Petrov tells us in english what was going on?!
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Sun May 24, 2009 2:49 am

KYLE ELLIS wrote: ... Petrov described the action of the left hand as -The left arm is not trying to bend the pole; it plants it firmly towards the bar and then transfers the effort to the right hand, so that the pole is bent by the impact of the vaulter's speed and mass. ...

This is also what I believe to be correct. Not becuz Petrov says so, but becuz I learned this first-hand from Coach Ken Shannon. Petrov is just verifying that we were on the right track. Personally, I wouldn't even use the word "firmly". It implies that the bottom arm is INTENTionally used for SOMETHING when the pole hits the box ... something a bit more than just balance.

KYLE ELLIS wrote: Agapit believes that you should begin pulling immediately with the left after the takeoff is complete.

Remember that the 6.40 Model is designed for super-elite athletes capable of breaking the WR. It's an ideal model that I don't believe even Bubka ever achieved. It's over-and-above anything that Petrov defines as part of the Petrov Model. I would not say that the 6.40 Model is impossible. Rather, it's currently impracticle ... for anyone but a super-gymnast ... therefore not useful for any mere mortals ... which would include anyone with a PR of less than 6.00. Even 6.00+ vaulters have not achieved this "theoretically possible but thus far unproven" model.

KYLE ELLIS wrote: I'm not sure what Alan thinks, but i quote him "The ideal take off is one...where both hands are driven up as hard and as high as possible. The athlete should have the feeling that this high punch of the hands continues after take off".

I'm quite sure that Alan recommends exactly what Petrov recommends. But I'll ask him to clarify this when I see him at Rick Baggett's camp in Portland next weekend.

KYLE ELLIS wrote: ... and what yelena says in her video I am confused as hell about this phase of the vault!!! What are we to do unless Bubka or Petrov tells us in english what was going on?!

I'm confused by her remarks too. The only explanation that makes any sense to me is that she was trying to simplify her explanation about that part of the vault to her interviewer, and she might have over-simplified it so much that she used the wrong words. Nothing else makes sense, unless Petrov has changed his model for Isi in the past year or two ... and if this was true, I'm sure he would have said something.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby vaultman18 » Sun May 24, 2009 8:43 am

July 25-26 in Boone NC all these questions can be answered in person. Alan and Roman will be there and all you have to do is show up and learn. :idea:
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Sun May 24, 2009 12:20 pm

:no:
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sun May 24, 2009 1:07 pm

:yes:
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Sun May 24, 2009 5:05 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote: And David Butler talks about in his video of an upward pressure (or hollow position) immediately following take off. Which I would assume would be followed by an immediate down pressure??

In listening to Dave Butler's Reno Pole Vault Summit 2007 vid again today ...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8610699280052593028
... I agree that he stresses "upward pressure" :yes: (I call this "PUSH AND SQUEEZE" with the top hand) ... but I didn't hear any references to "hollow position". The term he most commonly uses is "go elastic". Can you tell me what time in the vid he talks about this "hollow position"? :confused:

And I'm sure he doesn't refer to "immediate down pressure". In fact, he quite convincing demonstrates (with several different demos) the negative effects of pulling down on the pole (what you call "down pressure") after takeoff.

He mentions the bottom arm in a few places. Here's some of his quotes from the vid ...

At 5:30 he mentions ...
... that's called "make-space push-pole" we're pushing the pole all the way up towards vertical ... before you hit the back of the box ... and then at that point ... you go elastic.


At 9:24 ...
... example of block-and-break ... that's when you lock your left arm out ... you can do that ... but then you have to collapse your arm ... to get upside down. Not the most efficient way of pole vaulting or moving the pole to vertical.


At 14:40 he mentions ...
... elastic position ... I had a lot of girls this morning were trying to keep their left arm straight ... well that bends the pole ... but that does not allow you to swing. So it's important ... just as if you're in 1940 and you are straight-pole pole-vaulting ... you want to "go elastic" ... and drive your body thru your shoulders and thru your hands.


At 18:30 ...
... if I go fully elastic ... and then all I do is realign my body and go ... pressure ... keep the pressures up ... and downswing RRREALLY fast ... I'm gonna go totally upside down! If you don't believe me ... go home and try it! Don't try to vault forward ... don't try to lock the arm out ... TRY to go elastic ... and hit ... keep all the pressures ... at the same time ... and watch what happens to your inversion ... you'll go right upside down! ... just like the highbar!


Although I personally haven't used the term "go elastic", the points that Butler made in the vid are very similar to points that I've made in the past year in many, many different threads ... not just in the Bryde Bend thread.

EDIT: Removed last sentence, which no longer applies. ;)

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Last edited by KirkB on Tue May 26, 2009 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Sun May 24, 2009 6:39 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote:It seems as though many of those involved in this great discussion are angry and don't post on PVP anymore. And I would definately consider all 3 coaches followers of the Petrov model. So in conclusion from what these 4 coaches have said and what yelena says in her video I am confused as hell about this phase of the vault!!! What are we to do unless Bubka or Petrov tells us in english what was going on?!



Continue with your training and PM the specific coaches you wish to talk to, or call them, or if all else fails listen to the advice that has worked for you until you see them in person! Because apparently nothing us "non experts" have to input is going to matter anyway. You can listen to 5 different experts of the vault and getting 5 slightly different responses to different aspects of the vault. truth is they are probably all correct, in context.

Im content to press upwards with both hands and remain as tall as possible after finishing my take off and make the pole my high bar.
The greater the challenge, the more glorious the triumph


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