Bottom arm discussion continues...

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KYLE ELLIS
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Sun May 24, 2009 8:11 pm

Kirk, i meant no disrespect... I want to model myself after Bubka, maybe you were a pioneer... But i can't see films of your vaults.
Anyways Butler talks about hitting the takeoff with elastic shoulders of course, and the upward pressure begins the instant the trail leg starts to move forward. This is also the moment that Agapit talks about pulling. It starts the same, but the instant the natural swing begins is were the difference comes to play.

Butler is against pulling, but i think it is an early pull he is against. Like the guys who jump over the water, they have to extend and "get the pole moving" before the start climbing (pulling down the pole). Kirk watch the end of the video, someone from the crowd asks him what the arm does after the takeoff is complete, this is when he demonstrates it on stage and uses the word "hollow position"

Again no disrespect, I just want to learn more about the petrov model...
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Sun May 24, 2009 8:16 pm

vault3rb0y wrote:
KYLE ELLIS wrote:It seems as though many of those involved in this great discussion are angry and don't post on PVP anymore. And I would definately consider all 3 coaches followers of the Petrov model. So in conclusion from what these 4 coaches have said and what yelena says in her video I am confused as hell about this phase of the vault!!! What are we to do unless Bubka or Petrov tells us in english what was going on?!



Continue with your training and PM the specific coaches you wish to talk to, or call them, or if all else fails listen to the advice that has worked for you until you see them in person! Because apparently nothing us "non experts" have to input is going to matter anyway. You can listen to 5 different experts of the vault and getting 5 slightly different responses to different aspects of the vault. truth is they are probably all correct, in context.

Im content to press upwards with both hands and remain as tall as possible after finishing my take off and make the pole my high bar.


Well Agapit, who I think is an extremely intelligent person says pull, Butler (also extremely intelligent) says up pressure. Both right?? Agapit was Petrov's translator and Butler knows petrov as well. Don't take my previous post the wrong way.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Mon May 25, 2009 1:04 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote: Well Agapit, who I think is an extremely intelligent person says pull, Butler (also extremely intelligent) says up pressure. Both right?? Agapit was Petrov's translator and Butler knows petrov as well. Don't take my previous post the wrong way.

If you look at the timing of when Roman translated for Petrov and when the 6.40 Model was published, I think there's at least a 10-year gap. The timing of Roman's "Continuous Motion Theory" paper was much closer to the early 1990s, when he was totally "in synch" with Petrov's thinking. So my conclusion is that the CMT paper is in total synch with the Petrov Model, but the 6.40 Model is not. I think of the 6.40 Model as the "Petrov Model +" (plus the things that Roman has added).

Also, take a look at what ADTF Academy says about "the pull" ... on the PV Manifesto thread ... page 9-10 (especially page 9) in 2006 ...
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=4622&hilit=pole+vault+manifesto+agapit&start=96 ... well before I suggested the term "lat pull". I think he nailed it!

Lastly, I think the direction of the "pull" is the natural direction that you would pull in to WHIP out of the "elastic stretch" that ADTF Academy and Butler and Altius refer to. :yes:

Kyle, sorry to give you my non-expert, second-hand opinion, but since the experts aren't posting, take my opinion for what it's worth. :(

But ADTFA, could YOU respond to this? You had quite a clear picture of this ... from what I read of your 2006 posts in the PV Manifesto thread!

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Mon May 25, 2009 1:30 pm

I found this quote in a 2005 post here ... http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=6396&hilit=petrov+reno&start=24
Bubba PV wrote:That's very true. In Petrov's first appearance in Reno, which Agapit interpreted for him, he stated that higher jumps would come from this point forward by shortening the duration of the swing. Can't do that without a free take off! Bubba

... so I might have been a little hasty in thinking that Roman hadn't translated for Petrov since the 1990s. What year was this first speech?

As Bubba says, Petrov also advocates a "shorter swing" ... as per the 6.40 Model.

What are the years that Petrov spoke in Reno, and what are the links to those speeches? (And were there just 2?)

I hope my mis-statements can stir the pot enough to get the facts out on the table here. :idea:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Barto » Tue May 26, 2009 11:19 am

What other purposes might the bottom arm have?
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri May 29, 2009 3:40 am

On a whole new level 6-20-09

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Fri May 29, 2009 8:22 am

Technically correct, but they talk about doing things in the vault that you should not strive for, they should happen automatically. Wrong emphasis.

As far as bottom arm, all i heard from push the pole up and "throw" it to vertical. That sounds about right. What do you think?
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby golfdane » Fri May 29, 2009 3:18 pm

Here's a link to Petrov in Reno:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1443632188931901117

And a Canali presentation (Vincenzo Canali works with Petrov in Formia):
http://www.polevaultnews.com/all-video/ ... reno-2005/

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri May 29, 2009 4:13 pm

Great video with petrov, It helped clear up some confusion for me. So the push she is talking about must be during the plant.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Fri May 29, 2009 9:08 pm

As you might have gathered from other posts I've made about Bill Falk, I'm not a big fan. Based on his website info, I felt that Bill's writings didn't follow the Petrov Model as claimed.

Here's the thread where we discussed this ...
http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16269

But now ... looking at Video 4 ... I actually LIKE what Mark Strawderman (Bill's protoge that does most of the talking) is saying. Here's some soundbites ...

... when he does take off ... he continues to push the pole upwards ...

... the vaulter does not push or pull the pole .. rather follow the bending action ... do not row, pull, or manipulate the pole in any way ... do not interfere with the natural swinging action that has been created thru the drive-swing ...

... actualy, a good idea is to turn the feet first ...

... we want the athletes to learn to push the pole as a result of a good run and takeoff ... not by force-bending it or trying to manipulate the pole in some other fashion ...

I guess Mark knows what he's talking about ... he's the one that cleared 5.50 ... not Bill ... and Bill just didn't explain it as well on his website (or previouos vids) as Mark explained it in this vid.

Bill said that this was the SIXTH vid that they've done, and I've seen some of their previous ones ... which were what gave me a bad impression of his coaching in the first place. But THIS series of 6 vids ... with Strawderman doing most of the talking ... is actually quite good! :yes:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:38 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZxRyyqiZ1U


Wow! back than I honestly thought no one listened hence why I stopped posting. LOL I'm glad some people actually go back and check out the old stuff.


But serious this was Mark Hollis after only like 3 months of working with me clearing 18'10 (5.75), holding down on a 5m carbon 12.8 flex I beleive. There are many things in the vault that we were still working on and changing, but with that in mind during this time the only concentrations was on the last 2 steps causing the quick cycle of steps to produce a jumping/accelerating sensation off the ground (I talked about this in the coaches forum I beleive once with DJ, Tim and others I think in 2008) and the shoulder action that is being talked about on the top of the pole and initiating the turn with a twist of body not with the pulling of the hands.


In the video you will see that Mark does in fact tuck, but for no reason except a slow/late extension (IE the pulling concepts I talked about in 2006), the timing was off, the tuck was not needed or desired at all. In fact we are still trying to get it out of there on his full approach jumps and have on short approach work. Also notice the bottom arm it only slightly straightens because the pole bend opens up, not because he is performing any kind of pushing up action, but what you will notice is the shoulder pull hip extension action I was talking about in 2006. Is it perfect in this video by any means no, it was only after a couple months of learning and working on it.

Mark gets launched off poles for these reasons; doesn't over bend the pole (more energy available at the top i talked about this in 2006 i think it was labeled big bend vs little bend) and once initiated continues to apply energy into the pole on the top of his jump (talked about these principles in 2006 as well). He is still working on things and is getting better at this action and the timing of it. Sadly, I dont' have the video to show this perfectly with me. He has been able to do this perfectly once at a practice session on a 15' 195 from 4 lefts. The pole had little to no bend in it he performed the entire action correctly and got launched into a full errect handstand off the top of the pole over a bungee at 18' plus with the standards at 80. It was sick. If you can imagine the pole angle towards 18' plus with the standards at 80 cm and Mark fully extended off the top of the pole in the same direction the pole was facing and I mean fully extended not the normal legs starting to drop off.

Its a matter of converting the timing and execution to the long runs and doing it on stiffer poles and finally longer poles (next year). Fingers crossed everyone will get a chance to see what I mean in the near future when they watch Mark jump at the US Championships.

The video posted is the best example I have from a behind shot to show the action I was referring to and being asked about. Obviously it is not a perfect example cause it was not a continuous action through the swing into the shoulder pull, but it shows the shoulder pull action well enough. At this time Mark was able to do Bubkas with I beleive almost 90 pounds hanging from his hips as dead weight attached to a belt and chain.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:23 pm

KirkB wrote:As Bubba says, Petrov also advocates a "shorter swing" ... as per the 6.40 Model.


Kirk



What does a shorter swing mean?

Does it mean a compact swing and fast swing or a swing that gets the vaulter inverted faster. The objective is to beat the pole. Hence get upside down before the pole straightens out so your an arrow and the pole is the bow.

This is exactly what I teach before actions in your takeoff and swing that allows your to get inverted in the quickest time possible in relationship to how fast the pole bends and unbends. This is different for different types of vaulters.

In the end are the actions your doing in your jump causing you to get in a position to cover the pole or are they limiting your ability to cover the pole.

When I see shorter swing I think reduce all wasted motions.

Think of the swing this way. When you swing should you take your hips to were your hands are or were they are going to be?

This is the fundamental principle behind the action I teach. By executing the sequence of events correctly you can redirect your swing vertical so that you hips start to move to a position where the hands will eventually run into your hips instead of taking your hips to were your hands are (typical rockback) and than you have to move your hips again.

My beleifs are that a shorter swing is an efficient swing that allows you to cover the pole before it finishes it process of unbending.


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