Bottom arm discussion continues...

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Run2Niels
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Run2Niels » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:05 am

KirkB wrote:Excellent points made by ADTFA and Bethel. :yes:

Take a look at this thread about Christian Tamminga's highbar drills (especially his shoot-to-a-handstand on the highbar at the tail end of the vid, and his PV vid) ... and tell us what you think.

http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17987

It seems like he was TRAINING for the kind of 6.40 Model pull we're discussing here, but his actual vaulting doesn't reflect this. :confused:

I'm sure he's retired now, but he still does a mighty fine shoot-to-a-handstand from a near-hang! :yes:

Kirk


Christian has said he will be retiring after this season. Tomorrow he will jump in his first meet of 2009.
By the way, he said you should be pushing your bottom arm upwards after you have completed the takeoff. I always said they should just be firm with the bottom arm, no pushing. Got them a bit confused. :confused:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:16 pm

Run2Niels wrote: Christian ... said you should be pushing your bottom arm upwards after you have completed the takeoff. I always said they should just be firm with the bottom arm, no pushing.

Agapit doesn't say PUSH or FIRM. He says PULL.

If Christian's intent is to PUSH with the bottom arm, then he's not PULLING as prescribed by Agapit's 6.40 Model. As I said before, this is likely why he's never vaulted 5.80+. He's one of very few vaulters that has the super-athleticism to perform the 6.40 Model (as proven by his shoot-to-a-handstand on the highbar), but was unfortunately not trained that way. Even the Petrov Model (no pushing) would have got him over 5.80+, IMHO.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Robert schmitt » Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:05 pm

I just found this vid of rens bloom you can defiantly see him pull(his bottom elbow noticeably forcefully flexes) with the bottom arm at the initiation of his swing.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD_PaZM4qd8&NR=1
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby powerplant42 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:09 pm

The essential question for those jumps is this: Is it the 'lat-pull' (or at least an attempt), or a compensatory (or even intentional) 'row'?
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:05 pm

I can see where Rens flexes his bicep, which is indicative of him rowing. However, I don't think it's pro-active; I think it's re-active. In other words, it looks to me like he doesn't "pull" soon enough, so instead of a 6.40 Model lat pull, it's a tuck/shoot row.

It's not that easy to discern exactly what he's doing with his bottom arm immediately after takeoff ... as the pole hits. That's the question.

But if you look at the RESULT of whatever it is that he's doing, you can see that he's clearly stuck in the "flat back" position for quite a few frames ... too many frames. This is classic tuck/shoot technique.

It's rather unfortunate, becuz if you look only at his trail leg, it's beautiful! Nice and long, sweeping powerfully thru the chord. Nothing wrong with his trail leg at all. So if that's all A-OK, then why does he tuck so much? The answer can only be that it must be what he's doing with his arms. If he's swinging about his top hand, in the traditional Petrov Model swing ... he should have plenty of momentum in his upswing to swing/extend right past the flat back position ... in a continuous motion.

Bloom and Tamminga are both Dutch, right? So I wonder if they're getting some non-Petrov coaching advice that's throwing them off? :confused:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby vaultman18 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:25 pm

KirkB wrote:So if that's all A-OK, then why does he tuck so much? The answer can only be that it must be what he's doing with his arms.


He tucks because he is under. The "Free Take-off" is more critical than the arms. He is tucking because the pole is unbending before he has completed the inversion.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:15 pm

vaultman18 wrote:He tucks because he is under. The "Free Take-off" is more critical than the arms. He is tucking because the pole is unbending before he has completed the inversion.

Agreed ... now that you point that out.

It's a house of cards, isn't it ... he's under so he pushes ... he pushes so his swing is slower ... he's slower so the pole gets ahead of him ... the pole is ahead of him so he tucks to catch up to the pole ...

[sigh]

Kirk
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby dj » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:15 am

hello

the extension of the front arm only becomes a "push" if you are under.. if you are "free" there is no push..

i guess you could say Rene's jump is Joe Dial-ish..

dj

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:39 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEHLQsO-JUg

I figure you guys might find this experiment interesting since I was focusing on trying different things with my bottom arm after takeoff. They may seem subtle but each had a slightly different effect. I didn't have the intention of sharing this vieo with PVP when I made it so don't mind the long jump tacked on at the end, that is me trying to teach myself. Also Keep in mind I am getting back in shape, I started straight poling this summer after being pretty much retired for 2&1/2 years! So don't tell me I suck yet, please. I am also completely overhauling my technical model, go take a look at some of my first video's to see how bad it used to be....
On a whole new level 6-20-09

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:38 am

Off topic, but I think those jumps look really good, especially your ability to drop your shoulders and stay in line with the pole. Keep working, but you look good.
-Nick

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:26 pm

dj wrote:hello

the extension of the front arm only becomes a "push" if you are under.. if you are "free" there is no push..

i guess you could say Rene's jump is Joe Dial-ish..

dj


Joe and I were almost never under, which is one of the reasons I don't believe our vaults conform to the tuck and shoot error. If I ever felt that I was actively pushing on the pole, it meant a hopeless bail out was in progress. The only thing left to do was figure out which front bun to land on. I am hesitant to jump back into this fray, but I've been thinking and working on this for several months now and I think I am finally getting somewhere. Let me just say this. There is, without a doubt, a tuck and shoot that is a reactive result of errors in the vault. It is a method of salvaging something that is otherwise ruined. However, if bad vaults can be made adequate with this action, it stands to reason that a great vault can be built around the timing advantages the tuck affords. This is exactly what we tried to do, and our results were pretty decent. The action of the bottom arm is crucial to this jump and I am pretty sure I have a better handle on how it works now. I may still be talking nonsense, but I want to start posting again. I also want to repeat what I have said many times before. My posts on this subject are meant to be descriptive only. I do not intend to make any comparative judgments or recommendations as to what is best.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby powerplant42 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:55 pm

Tim, I don't think I've ever read any nonsense out of you on here (other than perhaps on the "Redneck" thread! :P )... We all can learn a lot from you. :yes:

I really hope you start posting more!
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka


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