Bottom arm discussion continues...

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:57 pm

Would it make a difference if the arm was pulling down and that increased the bend of the pole thus making it appear straight?
I already do this, and it doesn't make the pole bend more haha, it just makes the jump about a foot and a half less than it should be.
-Nick

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:47 pm

dougb wrote: What i described is exactly what Bubka does. And Hooker, and Walker, and ......

There's been a lot of debate about what exactly elite vaulters are doing with their bottom arms, and what their intents are. It's not very clear to see by vid, as you can't really distinguish ... as Chasing6 said earlier in this thread.

The natural bending of the pole ... irrespective of the vaulter's intent or what he's actually doing ... clouds the issue becuz as the pole bends away from the vaulter, it APPEARS to some viewers as if he's CAUSING the pole to bend this way due to his bottom-arm action. This leads to incorrect conclusions on what his intent is.

Really, the best way to determine the vaulter's intent is to ask him! :idea:

But you can also look at what the result of the vaulter's swing is, and deduce from there. If he's tucking or piking, you can safely assume that he's pushed or pressed (in some direction) with the bottom arm. If he inverts early ... without delay ... without a tuck or pike ... you can safely assume that he's not doing anything with his bottom arm that's preventing his body from swinging naturally.

Bubka does not tuck or pike. He's not pushing or pressing with his bottom arm.

Hooker does not tuck or pike. He's not pushing or pressing with his bottom arm.

Walker pikes. The swinging action of his trail leg is superb, but he presses with his bottom arm. This puts him behind the pole ... and he's able to get on a bigger pole ... but he has to pike to catch up to it. This is sub-optimal.

Most of the other vaulters on stabhoch.com do some non-optimal version of the Petrov Model ... or intentionally DON'T follow the model. You'll see the results of them pushing or pressing with the bottom arm ... becuz you'll see that they can't invert fast enough ... and must tuck or pike to catch up. Some do this surprisingly well. But it's not the Petrov Model ... and it's sub-optimal.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:59 pm

IAmTheWalrus wrote: ... If your arm becomes elongated by the pull of the pole, would it even matter if you pushed? If you hung on a high bar such that your arms were fully extended, and then pushed up, would it make any difference?

Wally, I get what you're saying, but the highbar isn't gripped the same as a pole. Try this ... use a mixed grip on the highbar (just as if you're vaulting) and face one of the uprights of the highbar. Now swing towards the upright, pressing up with the bottom arm (the arm that's in front of your body). This simulates your position on the pole better. In this case, it WILL make a big difference whether or not you're pressing up with the bottom arm. :idea:

IAmTheWalrus wrote: Also, Kirk I would imag[in]e the point of the LoJo video was when he said that the most important thing for young vaulters to do is to come into the plant with a "good left arm." Whether Mr. Johnson is correct, and what his idea of a "good left arm" entails is up for debate however.

Yes, I think he said that you need to "keep the pole moving" and in another part of the vid he said to plant with a "good left arm". He's referring to the top arm, of course, so that a little off topic in this bottom arm discussion. However, one of the secrets of keeping the pole moving is to plant as high as you possibly can ... and then some ... and keep the top arm straight. That's how I interpret his comments. It's all good. :yes:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Sat May 01, 2010 6:45 am

but... Lojo is right handed...
-Nick

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby dougb » Sat May 01, 2010 12:12 pm

"Really, the best way to determine the vaulter's intent is to ask him! "

Good idea. Somebody asked Hysong ( last I heard he was considered an eliite vaulter ) and got a definite resopnse.
Could anyone else try.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Sat May 01, 2010 3:22 pm

IAmTheWalrus wrote:but... Lojo is right handed...

You got me on that one. :o Becuz I'm left-handed, I got it mixed up! :o

That's why I ALWAYS refer to top hand and bottom hand ... so there's no confusion.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Sat May 01, 2010 3:26 pm

dougb wrote:"Really, the best way to determine the vaulter's intent is to ask him! "

Good idea. Somebody asked Hysong ( last I heard he was considered an eliite vaulter ) and got a definite resopnse.
Could anyone else try.

Doug, I agree. And Hysong is on record as INTENDING to press up with his bottom arm. I would like to know what Bubka or Hooker are on record as saying.

I do understand that there's conflicting views on this ... even within Petrovers ... and you may think that I take an extreme view on this. I'm OK with that ... I think Bubka took a fairly extreme view on this too ... could that be why he was heads above everyone else? :dazed:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Polevaulter2012 » Mon May 03, 2010 12:56 pm

KirkB wrote:My basic disagreement is that a vaulter should NOT be trying to bend the pole ... either before takeoff or after ... by bottom arm pressure. You MAY actually bend the pole a LITTLE bit more that way, but the net effect is that you're going to delay your swing ... and let the pole get ahead of you. That will lead to a tuck.

Bubka was not a tuck and shoot vaulter and he kept his bottom arm pushing up.You are correct that the pole will bend more but it wont delay your swing if you are on a big enough pole to where it doesnt over bend. Also Kirk, how are you supposed to bend the pole with out a fulcrum? you jumped with both hands on the pole right?

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Barto » Mon May 03, 2010 1:10 pm

It is undesirable to "bend" the pole. It is desirable to shorten the radius of the pole by "compressing" the pole. Compressing the pole does not require a fulcrum.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Mon May 03, 2010 3:18 pm

Polevaulter2012 wrote:Bubka was not a tuck and shoot vaulter and he kept his bottom arm pushing up.You are correct that the pole will bend more but it wont delay your swing if you are on a big enough pole to where it doesnt over bend. Also Kirk, how are you supposed to bend the pole with out a fulcrum? you jumped with both hands on the pole right?


I've bent the pole doing a full vault with a closed grip, no fulcrum there. That's not how it works.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Mon May 03, 2010 3:50 pm

I'll put my support out there that the left hand is not needed to bend the pole. It has been proven on this board that you can take your bottom hand off completely and still bend the pole.
Petrov states that the left hand does not bend the pole, yet the speed and mass of the vaulter bends the pole.

So I will support Kirk, Barto, Altius, Roman etc. that there is no need for a push with the left arm. I agree that the left arm can be an illusion, if the vaulter drops his shoulders at any point that will make the bottom arm looks like its straightening. This is something that confused me for a long time, but now I truly believe there is no difference in straight poling and bending. Now I am coo-coo right :D
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby tsorenson » Mon May 03, 2010 4:36 pm

Check out the Petrov speech from Reno 2005 (on another thread in the Adv. Technique Forum), at 52:00ish Petrov states pretty clearly what the bottom arm should do AFTER the takeoff is completed. He states that having a straight bottom arm after takeoff will result in a swing BELOW, rather than ABOVE the pole. I agree with this strongly.
This speech has lots of focus on the bottom arm and its role/position in the plant, takeoff, and after. He is definitely also clear on the fact that the bottom arm must be straight at takeoff and drive up during the first support phase, then bend up to 90 degrees.
Cheers,
Tom


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