chest penetration?

[H.I.S.]

I am getting a little confused on the topic of chest penetration.
Agapit says you should not try to penetrate with your chest because it is a passive phase which only redistributes the energy put into the vault. I have also read this in several other post and articles.
Altius supports the post written by agapit and also supports the russian/petrov model of pole vaulting. in B2B, although I do not remember reading this part myself but another coach swears up and down that B2B clearly tells the athlete to ead forward with their chest. I am just hoping to get some clarification on this to make sure I am not missing anything said or written by these two great pole vault minds and also hear the opions of people on the website.
My personal expierience is that I jump much higher and swing/invert without a rockback much easier when I do not lead with my chest and for some reason my steps are always under when I try to lead with my chest?
What do you think?

[VaultPurple]

I think it is a combination of the two to perform a good swing. With the free take off and good swing you have to drive chest long enough to reach the 'C' position and get a good pre-stretch, then the fast kick will come natural.

If you jump with a free take off and do not drive with your chest, then when you leave the ground your leg is just going to get ripped off the ground and swing you upside down , instead of you using a strong swing to swing you and the pole up and in.

[KirkB]

Good questions!

For cross-reference, read thru the "chest penetration" part of the discussion on this thread, where we've been discussing this topic recently ...
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17987&p=128577&hilit=chest+penetration#p128577

However, that thread is more about highbar drills, so I think "chest penetration" merits its own thread.

Kirk

[H.I.S.]

I think it is a combination of the two to perform a good swing. With the free take off and good swing you have to drive chest long enough to reach the 'C' position and get a good pre-stretch, then the fast kick will come natural.

If you jump with a free take off and do not drive with your chest, then when you leave the ground your leg is just going to get ripped off the ground and swing you upside down , instead of you using a strong swing to swing you and the pole up and in.

When I jump I def notice by leg being ripped off the ground and I love it. It does not pull me upside down though. I make more of a V than a C. My leg swings above my head and from a pike position/ not rockingback, I attempt to invert. It is so much more difficult than rocking back but happens so much faster and more powerfully.

[VaultPurple]

I think it is a combination of the two to perform a good swing. With the free take off and good swing you have to drive chest long enough to reach the 'C' position and get a good pre-stretch, then the fast kick will come natural.

If you jump with a free take off and do not drive with your chest, then when you leave the ground your leg is just going to get ripped off the ground and swing you upside down , instead of you using a strong swing to swing you and the pole up and in.

When I jump I def notice by leg being ripped off the ground and I love it. It does not pull me upside down though. I make more of a V than a C. My leg swings above my head and from a pike position/ not rockingback, I attempt to invert. It is so much more difficult than rocking back but happens so much faster and more powerfully.

Yes this may be true, and it is fast right now but answer this

What size poles and hand grips are u using? Along with your Height.

That is exactly how I have been vaulting for the past 3 years, but this summer have been working on getting a bigger pre-stretch and have almost raised my grip a foot in two weeks, and from a shorter run.

[H.I.S.]

I am 5'10 150lbs. Currently jumping 13 ft on a 12ft 170 pole with a 13.3 flex. I've been on a 14 ft 155 lb 22.2 flex and could not get any higher than 12.

This is my 2nd year pole vaulting after taking 6 years off
The method I was shown to use in hs was not correct at all. I was told to block out with my bottom arm and crush the pole. With this method I was able to jump 12ft on 14 ft poles rated below my wieght. After hs a fellow college athlete started teaching me what I now know as the petrov model. I quickly went up to 14ft I blew out my knee and stopped working until two years ago when I wieghed about 185.
I am now experimenting with all of these new models and I have started using agapits 6.40 model and currently love it. I liked the explanation of of only jumping on poles you can penetrate on without using compensatory actions and using a smaller pole with better form will get more hieght in the end. Thus far, for me, it has proven to be true. But I am still open to experimentation. I know tobey steven jumps on big poles and makes big hieghts will other jump the same hieght on smaller poles because of better form

So this poses the question which is more important. Bigger poles or better form?
And which form is better?
Once again to lead with your chest or to not?
I'm still saying not but am on the fence if u can convince me.

[powerplant42]

I think that the interpretation of what agapit has said on this board before does not satisfy the needs of a discussion on this. I do wish that he would come back and play!

For the sake of discussion, I'll throw out two 'themes'...
1. What the athlete intends to do.
2. What happens.

[VaultPurple]

Currently jumping 13 ft on a 12ft 170 pole with a 13.3 flex.

Exactly what I meant, if you swing up too fast because the pole rips you off the ground it will give you a good push off and a fast swing, but little penitration and you will not be able to hold that high.

I am now experimenting with all of these new models and I have started using agapits 6.40 model and currently love it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqS-GGiCHUE

In this he describes how the chest goes through the sholders and gets a good pre-stretch.

You want to swing up fast, but YOU need to be swinging because your muscles have been stretched and you are now kicking as hard as YOU can, not because you are being forced to swing up because of the pole.

I had the same problme where i swung straight upside down almost instantly with no foward momentum and could only get my hand grip up to 13', but I was running as fast as i could from 8 lefts. Now I am working on driving my chest and getting a better stretch, and I am holding around 13'9 from only 6 lefts.

[KirkB]

HIS, you started this thread on the Advanced forum, but in fairness to you, your PR doesn't merit any discussion of advanced techniques. I don't mean to suggest that we shouldn't try to help you the best we can, but ...

1. your questions should have been raised on the Intermediate forum, and

2. I don't really think you should be trying to even UNDERSTAND the 6.40 Model until you get the Petrov Model working well for you.

It's a matter of scaling. Let's suppose that Agapit is 100% correct in his 6.40 proposal, and it WILL take the 6.40 technique to break Bubka's records. And let's suppose ... as Agapit has stipulated ... that you need the gymnastic athleticism of Christopher Hamminga doing a shoot-to-a-handstand from a hang on the highbar to execute the 6.40 technique properly.

That being said, you shouldn't expect to ace this technique when you're vaulting in the 4-5 meter range. You just don't have the athleticism ... yet ... to do this.

I know there's SOME claims of SOME HS and college vaulters using the 6.40 model ... a couple even coached by Agapit himself ... but unless you truly understand this model IN DEPTH ... as very few people besides Agapit do ... then you're going to get it wrong ... as you may have already ... MAYBE.

I think VP is correct when he distinguishes between gripping low and "getting ripped" into an invert, with a good handstand vs. the 6.40 Model. I've seen guys do the former, and they don't bend the pole much, nor do they really jump off the ground much. They just "get ripped". But that IS NOT the 6.40 model!

In terms of scaling ... and this is only my own humble opinion ... I think that there's a progression of what you should be doing in the 4-5 meter range, which is different than what you should be doing in the 5-6 meter range and beyond. Your PV progression should match your highbar progression.

At your PR range, I think you should be working on SOME chest penetration ... to rotate the pole to vertical ... and to get SOME bend out of the pole ... and to give you SOME time to invert. There's no doubt that when you first learn this, you're going to introduce some passivity to your elastic stretch and your swing. You simply won't be quick enough when you're first learning this. You'll get quicker on the highbar ... not on the pole.

Once you're quick enough (using the Petrov Model), you're presumably no longer in the 4-5 meter range ... and you can then start eliminating the passive parts ... and you can start working more towards the 6.40 Model ... if that's your target model.

Even if you stuck with the Petrov Model (which is apparently good enough to go 6.15), your objective should be to continually and iteratively reduce the passive parts of your vault. It won't happen overnight ... it's progression.

Kirk

[H.I.S.]

I understand my PR does not merit advance technique in my own ability and I have no dellusion that I myself will ever be an elite vaulter, but I am in love/obsessed with this sport. The odds of me ever having the pure strength and power of elite vaulters should not hinder my ability to use the most advanced model and that is what I am interested in learning.
I also have a much deeper understanding of the vault than I lead on to avoid the rude remarks made to many people on this website.just because I can't vault as high as most doesn't mean I don't understand physics.although I will admit I will never have the ability to say from experience what the bend or timing of being on 17 16 or even 15 ft poles feels like, I was hoping to get that information from people that have jumped on those poles I usually get much more sincere and unbias responses when I play the idiot as opossed to the know it all.and I don't know it all. But with regards to your request I will keep my opinion out of this board thank you for your time and information as it has been very beneficial.

[bel142]

Chest drive between to models is fun to see, I honestly think Miles hits the pole harder than anyone else in the world right now. Chest penetration between these two vaults is similar and different in two ways. I invite you to compare

Derek Miles
http://www.derekmiles.com/practice716(10).avi

Bubka
http://www.stabhoch.com/ (france 6.11)

You might have to copy and paste the web sight

[vault3rb0y]

In my opinion.... if you are thinking about penetrating your chest at take off you are doing something wrong. Your focus should be on a powerful take off, not on driving your chest. Its an effect not a cause of jumping high- it just happens when you do other things right.

Take it for what it's worth.... and read this post- viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17708

There are many applications of the Long and Triple jump to the vault, and they dont think about driving their chest. Yet it happens. So why would we think about driving your chest into the vault? Chest penetration is really just a sign of a correct take off, and a correct take off as i see it breaks down into two things:

1.) how much energy (ie speed) you create in your run and at what angle you focus that energy at take off

2.) how well you conserve and convert that horizontal energy into vertical energy.

Pole drop, plant, take off step, hand movement, chest penetration, finishing of the take off, knee drive, "holding the drive", etc.... all boils down to those two factors. The key is to disseminate what things are a result of the others, and whether focusing on one (ie holding the drive) might be the wrong mindset for vaulting high.