Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

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grandevaulter
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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:24 pm

dj wrote:The key "element " is the amount of "force" that can be produced and transferred "at" the point of takeoff.

Please elaborate, transferred where and to what? ( the pole or air) "at" take off. It appears there is no pole loading at initial take off.

charlie wrote: DID NOT have his hand on the POLE by the time his hipps were over the bar!!!!!

Seems obvious or he would have dragged the pole up off the ground. He was jumping a meter over his grip.

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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby altius » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:21 pm

charlie wrote:He LOADED at the BOTTOM and got EJECTED up off the end, and yes the POLE did alot of the EJECTING!!!


Charlie. I still think you should really try to understand the Petrov/Bubka model. Because your comment suggests you do not have the slightest idea of what it is all about. It would help your coaching if you just took a look at the post "The Petrov model simplified" in the Coaches section above. :yes:
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby charlie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:46 pm

Do respect some of your coaching techniques but i do not need your help! Thanks anyway!

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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby altius » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:05 pm

Appreciate the kind thought Charlie! And I appreciate your enthusiasm and commitment too!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:39 pm

I am hoping charlie does not think the major benefit of the introduction of the flexible pole was increased push-off! It was obviously increased grip height! :yes:
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby charlie » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:22 pm

BOTH!!!!!!!! This ain't my first rodeo!!!!!

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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:50 am

I've mentioned this before somewhere.


Stiff pole vaulters at their best were getting 3' to 3'6" push


Bent pole vaulters at their best are getting 3'0 to 4' push with very few getting over 3'6"


Increased push off is not quite the factor of the bent pole it seems. It's the huge advantage in Grip height. Either as vaulters/coaches we have not found a way to use the recoil action of the bent pole or its advantage is not as great as it would seem. If it was the holy grail we would see pushes of over 5' on the guys. We are not seeing anywhere near that. In fact I would say its the opposite we are seeing more negative push heights due to the bent pole on novice vaulters, but since they can grip higher they jump higher than if it was a straight pole.

Just saying!!!!

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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:31 pm

grandevaulter wrote: It appears there is no pole loading at initial take off.
I was directed (and corrected) to the Warmerdam and Ulesye's videos . After further review, I will no longer call it loading the pole. Bending and straightening or unbending.

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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby botakatobi » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:39 pm

Push off analyses: (Remember 8 inches for box depth)

Vaulter Grip PR Push off Pole

Warmerdam 13’11” 15’8 3/4” 2’5 1/2” bamboo
Sefton 12’8” 14’ 11” 2’ 11” bamboo
Meadows 13’2” 14’ 11” 2’ 5” bamboo

Gutowski 13’8” 15’9 3/4” 2’9” steel
Morris 13’0” 15’ 8” 3’ 4” steel
Bragg 13’10” 15’ 9 ½” 2’ 7 ½” steel

grandevaulter
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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:48 pm

grandevaulter wrote: Bending and straightening or unbending.

Flexible pole: Shortening and lengthening ?
botakatobi wrote:Warmerdam 13’11” 15’8 3/4” 2’5 1/2” bamboo

Sefton 12’8” 14’ 11” 2’ 11” bamboo
Meadows 13’2” 14’ 11” 2’ 5” bamboo

Gutowski 13’8” 15’9 3/4” 2’9” steel
Morris 13’0” 15’ 8” 3’ 4” steel
Bragg 13’10” 15’ 9 ½” 2’ 7 ½” steel

Great stuff Katobi ! Thanks !

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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby botakatobi » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:58 pm

Sorry the formatting turned out poorly.

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Re: Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

Unread postby superpipe » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:23 pm

ADTF Academy wrote:Increased push off is not quite the factor of the bent pole it seems. It's the huge advantage in Grip height. Either as vaulters/coaches we have not found a way to use the recoil action of the bent pole or its advantage is not as great as it would seem. If it was the holy grail we would see pushes of over 5' on the guys. We are not seeing anywhere near that. In fact I would say its the opposite we are seeing more negative push heights due to the bent pole on novice vaulters, but since they can grip higher they jump higher than if it was a straight pole.


I beg to differ. The technique has been there for a long time to accomplish big push offs well over 4'. The problem is 95% of the world refuses to use the same technique as Bubka. More specifically, a straight trail leg swing. Most vaulters are taught the "tuck and shoot" method ( even if they use the bottom arm correctly ). People love to fight physics for some reason. A straight trail leg swing will keep loading a pole allowing a vaulter to use a stiffer pole AND have the COM in the right position to exploit the recoil of the pole ( assuming correct usage of the bottom arm at take-off ). A Straight trail leg swing provides more leverage and therefore high rotational force is applied to the pole. It also keeps the pole "rolling forward". "Tuck and Shooters" apply very little rotational force to the pole not only because it's less leverage, but also because they are applying the rotational force under their top hand ( "under" the pole instead of "over" the pole ). This combined with their COM at a point farther towards the runway than if a straight trail leg swing was used, means less loading of the pole and a poor position on the pole to exploit the recoil. Bubka made the inversion look easy. He doesn't fight to get there, instead he can easily move with the recoil to add even more energy coming off the top. "Tuck and Shooters" are fighting like hell to get aligned with the pole since their COM is too far back. Instead of moving with the pole's recoil and adding more energy, they are loosing energy fighting to get aligned and catch up with the pole's recoil that started before they even finished their tuck.

How many times have we seen Bubka let go early off the top and still "explode off the pole"? Regardless of why he felt he had to "bail" off his pole early, he still has a crazy amount of released energy off the pole because he loaded it more and was in the right position to work with the recoil of the pole.

A beginner girl can jump 8' the first day by pulling her body over the bar. The result looks amazing and what she did "worked" for 8', but will she jump much higher? "Tuck and Shooters" jumping 19' looks amazing and it worked, but will they jump 20' or 21' like Bubka? There's a million ways to jump 18' mostly based on speed, body height, and vertical jump capability, but why not use human biomechanics and the simply laws of physics to make the best use of your athletic qualities instead of literally fighting the laws of physics?

My comments are to the vault community, not directed at you ADTF Academy. I was just using your observation of alot of vaulters as a starting point.
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