The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:52 pm

dj wrote:Next: An athlete with more speed will/can carry that speed after takeoff a little farther than a slower athlete, so I see, by "physics" a better chance for an athlete with speed to function with a farther out takeoff… but that depends on the grip to speed ratio.



A great example of this is Ashton Eaton. I have video of him taking off wayyyyy outside, but because he is such an incredible athlete, and because his grip is fairly low for his speed/explosiveness, he doesn't sink at all. You average HS kid is going to sink after takeoff if they are even 6" out.

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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby dj » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:45 pm

thanks rainbow...

over the last several years as the interest has grow for the "free' takeoff…… i have seen many, many young beginning jumpers attempt to accomplish "their" or the coaches version … with very little success because the "physics" is not close to correct.

"on" is correct… way out is incorrect..… under is never correct.. although with fiberglass you can still vault successfully… but not to your best ability.


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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby superpipe » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:57 pm

dj wrote:Next: An athlete with more speed will/can carry that speed after takeoff a little farther than a slower athlete, so I see, by "physics" a better chance for an athlete with speed to function with a farther out takeoff… but that depends on the grip to speed ratio.


The first part of this is true, but I don't follow your second part. The farther "out" your take-off, regardless of runway speed, the more gravity decelerates the vertical component of your jump impulse. That deceleration time is a waste of energy.

dj wrote:Petrov indicated, while standing at the takeoff point in front of a pit in Reno, that, first the "free" meaning, free from the "resistance" of the pole.. and second that if the takeoff is hundredths of a second before the pole is set against the back of the box….. there will be a "distance" traveled at takeoff ..free.... indicating with his hands.. a width of 20/30 cm that the pole will be moving toward "rotation" at the same speed as the body.. indicating that is a short period of time, just as the toe is leaving the ground…


Again, the larger this "distance", the more vertical deceleration (which equates to a decrease in the energy you created on the runway) that happens before transferring the resultant energy to the pole.
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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby altius » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:00 pm

"Petrov indicated, while standing at the takeoff point in front of a pit in Reno, that, first the "free" meaning, free from the "resistance" of the pole.. and second that if the takeoff is hundredths of a second before the pole is set against the back of the box….. there will be a "distance" traveled at takeoff ..free.... indicating with his hands.. a width of 20/30 cm that the pole will be moving toward "rotation" at the same speed as the body.. indicating that is a short period of time, just as the toe is leaving the ground…"

dj[/quote]

I like it!

This is what Petrov said in Birmingham in 1985 -

And only on concluding the take off should the vaulter transfer smoothly into support ....
• During the plant the pole ... bends under the effect of the vaulter’s speed and body mass”
• The vaulter’s task is to drive the pole at take off as much as possible and to give himself a FREE TAKE OFF with transfer at the end into a smooth plant of the pole.
• If we perform a free take off we can feel the pushing action of the whole body and we can transfer the speed of the run up and take off. But this angle must be achieved with a complete extension of the body and mainly, keeping that short difference between the full extension of the body and the tip of the pole reaching the end
of the box.


Now all we need to do is add Bubka's comments from his presentation in Jamaica

"In pole vaulting the crucial factor is how to transfer energy to the pole, through the complete body of the vaulter: the arms, shoulders, hip, back and legs. But if the pole begins to bend while the vaulter is yet on the ground, it is impossible to transfer the energy; all the energy is lost and goes to the box. The point is. How to achieve this? The free take off is a very short period of time, we can say no more than hundredths of a second, going from the end of the take off and the moment in which the tip of the pole reaches the end of the box. But this short time makes a big difference that allows the competitor to greatly improve their results."

But the key to understanding the take off is in Brankos comment that what matters is what the athlete is TRYING to do! The fact is that placing the tip of a long pole accurately into a box - by hitting a take off point over 4.30m/14' away from the box - a box that is difficult to see from any distance away IS A HIGHLY COMPLEX SKILL. Note I said skill because it involves both the technical ability needed to manoeuvre the pole into position while running at high speed AND the perceptual ability to steer oneself into the perfect position to achieve take off. Given that long and triple jumpers find it difficult to hit a beautiful white painted board (that they can see from the end of the runway) accurately - to within a few inches - on every jump, it should not be surprising that vaulters - who have no target to aim their foot at and who must judge their take off position in relation to a box 14' or more away - do not always hit the take off spot they ARE AIMING FOR.

This means that if you have access to millions jumps by elite vaulters you will inevitably find examples of taking off under by virtually every one of them -especially if there is a blustery tail wind involved on that day. So while it is pretty clear that Brits and Ecker took off under - without talking to them it is impossible to know whether that it was what they intended to do - but it was so regular that I suspect it was what they intended. However with Galfione - whose coach Houvion had been a co speaker with Petrov in Birmingham - I believe that he was in fact trying to take off beneath the top hand or even a bit out - and not under. That is certainly the impression -and it is only an impression - that I have gained by watching the film I have available of his jumping.

dj - what I meant by the term cherry picking was that because of the difficulty of hitting the take off spot precisely it is always possible to search through film, find an example of an athlete taking off under (to cherry pick! Sorry thought it was an Amuricanism) and then present that as THE FACT that the athlete always took off under - IE that is what they were trying to do.
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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby dj » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:16 pm

hye

superpipe

i believe what you are saying is correct... any vaulter "out" by any margin past the 'vertical" plum-bob point will lose some speed "in flight" .. more if they finish the takeoff at that point...

less if they have a good "up" impulse and "follow-through", as in long jumping, that point for a faster vaulter could be a tad "out" without huge negative results..

none of the jumps I have from the science studies show Bubka "out" either not at all or by only a very few centimeters… I'll go back to my file and check…

I do have a Tully jump with approximately the same speed, takeoff point, vertical reach but "lower" resultant velocity.. and as a result he was not near Bubka's Max COM height.. I know why based on the numbers but that need not go into this discussion…

"ON" is the correct target for the takeoff … I believe Pertov said himself that attempting to leave the runway just before/as the pole tip is "set in the back of the box" (maybe not those words).. is the correct plant/takeoff.

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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby dj » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:47 pm

thanks Alan for clearing that up...

we can always, in this day and age of video find a video that will support and "verify" our take on technique..

I think that is one of today's coaching problems.. coaching education, based on video and not physics, is giving some of the new coaches, first a "license" that is flawed and not "physics" based.. and second many never develop the "eye" that a coach needs and can use to coach without video, ………see it in real time.. feel it correct it..

what the athlete feels the coach should see…. What the coach sees the athlete must feel…


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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby Branko720 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:04 pm

DJ I was actually asking about what david bussabarger wants coaches to think. I feel like I am on the same page with you and Alan. I just don't understand what Bussabarger is trying to say, or if he's just trying to stir the pot.

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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby altius » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:41 pm

Branko720 wrote:DJ I was actually asking about what david bussabarger wants coaches to think. I feel like I am on the same page with you and Alan. I just don't understand what Bussabarger is trying to say, or if he's just trying to stir the pot.


Remember Branko that, "They also serve who stand and serve - sorry, stir the pot!" Not sure who said that originally but the fact is that PVP was going to sleep before DB became involved. So even if he is muddying the water in the pot he has woken folk up from their annual September slumber!
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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:01 pm

dj wrote:thanks rainbow...

over the last several years as the interest has grow for the "free' takeoff…… i have seen many, many young beginning jumpers attempt to accomplish "their" or the coaches version … with very little success because the "physics" is not close to correct.

"on" is correct… way out is incorrect..… under is never correct.. although with fiberglass you can still vault successfully… but not to your best ability.

dj



If your athlete has less than a 30" vertical being out will probably cause them to sink. If your name is Aston and you have a 42" vertical well you can probably takeoff out and be ok. Thats right he also long jumps like 26'7".....

Oh wait does that mean not everyone can learn and wants a PRE JUMP...... Yep if you got a non athletic pole vaulter.. You might want to stick with on or slightly under. If you got a stud jumper than you can start inching that step out further and further. Heck an 18' guy long jumper can take off a foot out right? LOL please video tape it on a 15' pole.

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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby altius » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:23 pm

ADTF Academy wrote:
dj wrote:

Heck an 18' guy long jumper can take off a foot out right?


I suspect you already know that no one is suggesting that -as I also suspect you are trying to make a point. Of course you cannot 'pre jump' if you cannot jump! In fact Paul Burgess never managed that - and tended to take off flat - because he was poor 'jumper'. The story is that Paul could pole vault a greater height than he could long jump for distance! Another story is that as a 17 year old he was beaten in a 100 metre sprint by a girl of the same age!

I suspect that this is one of the problems vaulters face if they do not take off in the vault from their 'natural' take off leg.
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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby dj » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:36 am

You might want to stick with on or slightly under


"ON" is correct and "under" is not..for any vaulter....

the idea that only "jumpers" can function correctly at the take-off is incorrect… if your vaulter is an "elite" level jumper he has the ability and can be taught to "impulse"…

"vertical" is not the issue.. and this is where we are getting it wrong and should be teaching the correct "none" stretched run…

If you teach the correct, none stretched, run the jumper can be taught to "penultimate"… and transfer correctly or at least "better'… Tully was one of those that had to try and shorten his steps so he could function correctly at take off.. tim Mack "steped under" about 10cm but had "impulsed" enough that the heel of the takeoff foot was off the track and jumped 5.90.. by 10+cm with a 5 meter grip.. "form follows function"....

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Re: The location of the take off point in fiberglass pole vaulti

Unread postby altius » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:38 am

dj While you are correct in terms of the impact of the last six steps on the take off, I still believe that some folk cannot jump effectively at take off because they simply cannot jump! I do realise that we can use training modalities to improve their ability to jump at take off, but I think some vaulters are never able to fulfil their overall potential because of this limitation.
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