Negative Inversion!

[AVC Coach]

If you begin the push phase with the spine only vertical or less, (remember the spine is continuing to tip forward feet first) by the time you release the pole, you are already flagged out toward the crossbar!

But you would be moving toward the crossbar and the safety of the pit. I know we've seen the video of Bubka having a successful jump achieving this position, but I need to see more footage of other vaulters doing this over and over with success. I can't get by the idea that if the pole doesn't move past vertical, the vaulter will land in the box or how precise you would have to be when setting your standards.

Do you have some video footage of your athletes using this concept with success multiple times? On paper, and at a glance, the concept sounds good. I'm not arguing with that. My concerns are safety and success rate. What else have you got to support this?

[PVDaddy]

First of all AVC Coach congratulations at your success in coaching and your students most recent PR and National win!
Must have been a thrilling day for you both!

I think the most important thing to understand as far as the safety of this concept, is that in order to achieve Negative inversion, the vaulter is going to have to have a dynamic Free Take off, excellent chest penetration into elasticity which produces ideal pole loading and an excellent whip-up into inversion. Are these not the most important factors for insuring that the Vaulter pole system is moving toward the crossbar and the safety of the pad?

I think you have the impression that the vaulter is releasing from the pole while the pole is still bent and has not yet moved toward vertical?

The point that I am making is that the vaulter begins the strong bottom arm push toward the pit, WHILE the pole is still bent, and in the negative position, but the body is still rotating to true vertical at moment of release, because, the bottom hand push assist in rotating the spine toward vertical as it moves to true vertical and assist the turn, at the exact moment the pole uncoils (with the proper pole selection its vertical)! Fly-away has now just begun. The spine is ideally truly vertical with the push and uncoiling of the pole, shooting him to the top of the pole, with the top hand push being the last thing to complete push-off. The pole and the vaulter are moving toward the pad the entire time as the body rotates over the crossbar feet first.

[PVDaddy]

Oh by the way AVC coach I was very motivated to follow your post last week, because of your openness to new concepts, just to see what kinds of thing you had to say? It was indeed your comment about your belief that the bottom hand really only performs a pulling tension through the shoulders during the swing. This confirmed what I saw and intuitively believed to be true with Bubka, and changed my Agenda into a more accurate description. Thank-You!

Also while going through your post I came across your link about your recent National Champion and his new PR at that event. I went to the link to study his vault and watched it several times. I must say I was over-impressed with his run up, Plant and especially his long powerful swing with those long legs of his. You have really coached him well in these areas! I could not believe how much height he was able to attain, because he did not seem to use much bottom hand or top hand push? I believe he is very capable of negative inversion, and can only imagine what he is capable of with more bottom and top hand push!!!!???? This was going through my mind the entire time and I just wanted to share my thoughts about it.

[PVDaddy]

AVC coach I stated that incorrectly, Andrew does have bottom hand and top hand push. He doesn't lay his head and shoulder back, allowing his hips to rise to even close to full inversion to the top arm, before he begins to to push. He does what Altius says most Americans do, he begins pushing, while still underneath the pole and not on top of it. What I meant to say I was thinking was, what would he be capable of if he corrected this?

[altius]

It must be very hard really, trying to establish a new cult; having to deal with unbelievers who only accept the one true prophet in Vitali Petrov, believing as I do that he offers pretty well all the wisdom one needs to begin to coach the pole vault effectively. It becomes even harder when simple things are made to seem much more complex than they really are, but of course that is normal with a cult. As Albert Einstein said "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius --- and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." But what do I know. After all monks in the middle ages spent years debating the critical issue, “How many angels can sit on the head of a pin”.

I suggest that it will especially difficult to begin a new cult when the person putting forward these ‘new, improved, revolutionary” ideas, does not appear to have actually coached the pole vault. While this is not a critical requirement for posting on PVP, I believe that it is a valuable one. I also believe that it will be difficult for one to find converts if you alienate folk by treating them like dumb bunnies, dumb bunnies who have never even considered the miracles and wonders that you are proffering.

There is nothing incorrect about what you are saying but it really has been said before – and in a way that coaches may more easily understand and employ with their athletes. If you want to take an academic approach and demand references that show that this is in fact the case, you will have to wait a long time - although between them, BTB2 and the dvd, both published several years ago - do deal with what is being discussed here.

Because we are coaches, not academics (well I used to be one) – we present our ideas when asked to do so and do not – or at least I do not – add them to our professional vitae. They are so to speak, “one offs”- love that phrase! You will just have to take my word for the fact that I did indeed present – on behalf of “Australasian pole vaulting” as I recall - what I claimed to present at Reno - the importance of Pole speed. I believe that the other speakers on this topic were Brian Yokoyama, Rick Attig and Dave Nielsen.

I did begin with images of the extreme position covering the pole and then showed Bubka driving up and AWAY from the bar from that position. I then posed the question – How did he have the confidence to do that, How did he know that he was going to clear the bar and not drop into the box? The issue that Morry raised. This lead naturally into the technical elements which allowed him to keep the pole moving forward – ie pole speed - such as the pre jump take off, the long continuous whipping swing of the left leg, the driving of the shoulders down towards the pad from the position covering the pole etc, etc.

The film I refer to is shown in the Beginner to Bubka dvd - immediately following that of the 6 metre jump you allude to (like to know where you got that!!!) . I used the latter jump to highlight the pre jump – unloaded pole at take off – and the second clip to highlight what I have just described. Cant capture it verbatim but in essence I say – at around 7.40 on the film -
“Bubka is trying to get on top of the pole, not underneath it – his feet are an extension of the pole (Petrovs concept of covering the pole) He drives his hips up and AWAY from the bar - makes no attempt to move towards the bar because he KNOWS his POLE SPEED will take him to it. These two elements – the free take off and covering the pole are the critical elements of the Petrov model".

There are three images from that clip in BTB2 (27.17a-c) on page267 and another two, 27.15a and 27.15b on the preceding page. The whole chapter may be worth reading because there are several pertinent Petrov quotes in it. Incidentally I took 27.15a with my own camera in Atlanta during a training session. Also note that page 266 also shows images of four of my young athletes attempting to cover the pole because it is perhaps worth reminding ourselves that, “Mere knowledge is not the goal but action”.

Re your avatar – I had five color images of that first 6.00 metre jump in my hand within three weeks of it happening in 1985 – in fact the most critical of those images is on the inside front cover of BTB2.

All of the critical images I have mentioned, are shown along with a many others of Bubka and other vaulters from that era on a great black and white film from France given to me by my good friend Steve Rippon – now head pv coach of Finland (and may I add one of the great, but almost unknown, vault coaches of the world). That film is available from Sean Brown – as is the BTB dvd I keep mentioning – it pays to advertise!

Finally let me restate – because, like pretty well all of the issues debated here, it has been posted on pvp before – what Bubka said, when agapit asked him what he thought about after he left the ground ------- AAAAAAAAAAAARGH! Nothing at all about negative inversion!!

PVDaddy, I realize it is difficult to understand that you are not going to be accepted as a guru, far less a prophet, by me at least. Certainly not until you have coached some athletes and put your knowledge into practice. That should be easy as there are thousands of youngsters out there looking for help!

While I hope it will not, I suspect that this will lead to a tirade of abuse and denigration, but such is life!

[IWUcoach]

Just reading through this post and remembered seeing this pic of Toby.....thought it fit in nicely with the topic at hand. (First post on this site, glad to be a part of it.)

[PVDaddy]

Altius I phrased this question?:

Consider this? How is it possible to perform a strong downward push to the pit with first the bottom and then the top hand and PUSH yourself into a truly vertical position, before the pole uncoils, UNLESS you are in a beyond vertical (I use the term negative because in mathematics, to the left of tangent, is concidered a negative direction) to begin with? Is there an advantage to bar clearance with a vertical fly-away? Does it not take valuable time to bottom and then top arm push? Is not the pole uncoiling during this time? Does it not make sense to perform both those pushing actions before the pole uncoils at true vertical? Does this position (negative) help keep the pole loaded more and longer, and therefore give the vaulter a CHANCE to achieve a vertical fly-way?

Altius, please reference were you, or anyone on here has once referred to the importance of achieving this position (negative inversion) and its impact on pole bend, bottom push, top push, true vertical, and maximizing flyaway height? If you have mentioned all this at a conference please include a link? I would love to here it~ Perhaps you don't believe it is a truly a Superior position or you have never contemplated the importance of that position?

If on the other hand you do believe it is a truley superior position, please just come out and say it! The pole vault world desperately needs good direction from it leaders!

Consider this? How is it possible to perform a strong downward push to the pit with first the bottom and then the top hand and PUSH yourself into a truly vertical position, before the pole uncoils, UNLESS you are in a beyond vertical (I use the term negative because in mathematics, to the left of tangent, is concidered a negative direction) to begin with? Is there an advantage to bar clearance with a vertical fly-away? Does it not take valuable time to bottom and then top arm push? Is not the pole uncoiling during this time? Does it not make sense to perform both those pushing actions before the pole uncoils at true vertical? Does this position (negative) help keep the pole loaded more and longer, and therefore give the vaulter a CHANCE to achieve a vertical fly-way?

Altius, please reference were you, or anyone on here has once referred to the importance of achieving this position (negative inversion) and its impact on pole bend, bottom push, top push, true vertical, and maximizing flyaway height? If you have mentioned all this at a conference please include a link? I would love to here it~ Perhaps you don't believe it is a truly a Superior position or you have never contemplated the importance of that position?

If on the other hand you do believe it is a truley superior position, please just come out and say it! The pole vault world desperately needs good direction from it leaders!

I then said:

In saying this, I am not trying to say you have never contemplated the importance of that position (or that you are a dumb Bunny because you are far fro that!). I'm asking you with respect of your educated opinion, whether or not you have? I have never heard anyone on here but myself discuss it? You said that that position was inevitable? Why was it inevitable? What does that mean? Do you believe it was intentional or a mistake? Do you feel that it helped or hurt his vault and why? Do you feel it is a Superior or Inferior Position and why? We all seem to agree that he he did it! We all know he set a new world record on that day?

You still havent answered hardly any of it? I'm sorry I offended you with my questions, that was not my intent? It seems to me you are suggesting that these ideas have all ready been discussed on here at great length? If so were at? It also seems you are suggesting these ideas have no value and are not worth discussing?
I really could care less about the politics or making converts. I too believe Petrov is the geatest pole vault prophet and Bubka his greatest disciple. I have been trying to make that clear from the very beginning!

[PVDaddy]

Reading through my own post I realize I made another mistake.
I asked the question how is it possible to perform the bottom hand push followed by the top hand push before the pole uncoils unless one is in a negatively inverted position? I did not intend to include the top hand with that statement as the bottom hand push only occurs while The pole is uncoiling.

Also Altius I would like you to know that I did my very best to take what is a relatively complex subject and describe it as clearly and as simply as I possibly could! I was not trying to turn this idea and concept into rocket science as you may believe!

If anything it seemed to me that you took a very long time and round a put way of addressing some direct questions I posed to you? One of the things I asked was that you would post your excellent picture of negative inversion? Is that possible?

Thank you IWU coach for posting your picture of Toby Mac he seems to also have achieved negative inversion in that picture as well!

I am going to try to find some other pictures of other vaulters that have achieved the same thing and am encouraging others to follow suit!

[grandevaulter]

It's all covered in 267-268. It is explained in his words. Photographs on 266.

[straightup]

i actually have experimented this and found that if you can stay calm and if you are very flexible it adds another dimension to my vault. i hit a recent pr using this.

[PVDaddy]

Last I checked I was on a site called Pole Vault Power,Not BTB or Altius power?

The members here only have access to what has been said on THIS site and are not responsible for knowing what was said in every book or speech on the planet?

Altius, you have repeatedly (arrogantly, pompously and rudely) made the claim that I probably am not capable of raising any new ideas that have not already been raised on this site by you or your club, and now I have to be responsible for everything you have ever said at a conference or in print?

I proved you wrong, both here, and in Agenda 21 so just deal with it! That's how we all learn Altius! "But a man convinced against his will, remains of the same opinion still!" Some guy from Australia taught me that saying!

Now you have resorted to labeling me a self proclaimed pole vault prophet, Guru and Cult leader! lol

You simply can not handle the fact that a pole vault nobody can bring up new thoughts, Ideas, or concepts, that you have not said, or thought about on here, now I have to be responsible for everything you have ever said at a conference or in print? You have said everything there is to be said about pole vaulting, It so ridiculous! What exactly did you say in your book about what I believe you called " Covering the Pole to the Etreme" and I have chosen to call Negative Inversion, Anyway? Did you Mention that THERE IS a great ADVANTAGE of being, beyond vertical like I have? Did you describe WHY it is an advantage like I have? Did you Mention HOW Bubka achieves it like I have? Did you mention WHY IT LOADS THE POLE more effeciently like I have? Did you mention why its actually more safer, like I have? Lets here exactly what you said in your book about it, because you have said NOTHING about it on PVP until I started this post! Did you raise the same above points as me? I will be waiting to here you address ALL of this bolded text! I doubt you can or will!

Oh by the way Petrov is my Pole Vault King, However, there are many, many areas of Bubkas Vault he has never addressed in his original Model Such as when and how to Pull, push or 'invert!" These are very important areas that must be addressed!

[altius]

PVdaddy – had a rethink. Perhaps the issue – as it often is in bar room brawls – is one of semantics. Just possibly as I have tried to accommodate your ideas into my picture of an ideal vault, I have misinterpreted what you are saying. So do me a favor. Take a look at the second black and white clip on the BTB dvd – or even at the three images of Bubka shown inverting on page 266 of the book and tell me if what Bubka is shown doing there, is what you have termed ‘negative inversion’ – because that is what I assumed you were describing.

I just view his movements there as the inevitable result of him covering the pole perfectly and then extending to clear the bar as the pole moves forwards – so the key element here is the ‘covering of the pole”; something that in fact even young athletes can understand and begin to do. However as I indicated previously it does not look as though many vaulters are trying to achieve this position – but appear to be happy to ‘rock back’ underneath the pole instead of getting ahead of and above it.

Incidentally the position and movements shown in that clip are also ‘one offs’ in the sense that I have never seen another really clear example from his vaulting as perfect as that is. That said another angle of his indoor world record might have show something very close but because that was as tidy a jump as he ever produced.

If these images do not represent what you have termed ‘negative inversion’ then we are at an impasse because I must admit I don’t know what you are talking about. If they are, then we can move forward and establish how to help athletes master this important element of the technical model.