Negative Inversion!
- Pogo Stick
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Re: Negative Inversion!
I often watch this video from Helsinki '83 (YouTube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4WUhpPHbgw). The quality is poor and camera angle is not perfect - it is way back and far from pit, probably across the track lines. My observations could be totally wrong because of that, but this video is weird.
Here are few images of Bubka's winning 5.70m jump. I outlined body and pole for better understanding:
If I am forced to do so, I would describe this jump as "back kip to stand". His feet are going further back, over-covering pole and body. Then he is performing kip action up to vertical stand (over-covering is term I just coined, PVDaddy will probably call it negative covering). All the time his legs look almost like extension of the pole and move in sync with pole top (tangential) ensuring pole covering as long as humanly possible.
He is totally inverted before pole recoiled. In some frames, body vertical angle looks like greater than 90 degree (negative inversion?). Right before fly-away his body is in strange position - twisted back in inverted C.
PVDaddy, would you consider this video as an example of your negative inversion concept?
Barely one year later in London (5.90m) and Rome (5.94m) his jump looks different (both can be found easily on YouTube). The camera angles are similar to Helsinki video. They look now like classic Bubka. There is no more such pronounced kip and pole covering - just smooth transition from swing to extension. Pole release is Bubka-esque with almost no apparent push with hands (who need it with such stiff poles?). And yes, the pole is whipping wildly after release. Just watch 5.94m jump from Rome. After releasing, the pole skipped from the box and wander around the track still vibrating - not good idea to catch this pole.
Does my eyes, bad angle and poor video quality are fooling me or he (they) introduced some pretty big changes between '83 and '84?
If yes, why Petrov altered this part of jump?
Here are few images of Bubka's winning 5.70m jump. I outlined body and pole for better understanding:
If I am forced to do so, I would describe this jump as "back kip to stand". His feet are going further back, over-covering pole and body. Then he is performing kip action up to vertical stand (over-covering is term I just coined, PVDaddy will probably call it negative covering). All the time his legs look almost like extension of the pole and move in sync with pole top (tangential) ensuring pole covering as long as humanly possible.
He is totally inverted before pole recoiled. In some frames, body vertical angle looks like greater than 90 degree (negative inversion?). Right before fly-away his body is in strange position - twisted back in inverted C.
PVDaddy, would you consider this video as an example of your negative inversion concept?
Barely one year later in London (5.90m) and Rome (5.94m) his jump looks different (both can be found easily on YouTube). The camera angles are similar to Helsinki video. They look now like classic Bubka. There is no more such pronounced kip and pole covering - just smooth transition from swing to extension. Pole release is Bubka-esque with almost no apparent push with hands (who need it with such stiff poles?). And yes, the pole is whipping wildly after release. Just watch 5.94m jump from Rome. After releasing, the pole skipped from the box and wander around the track still vibrating - not good idea to catch this pole.
Does my eyes, bad angle and poor video quality are fooling me or he (they) introduced some pretty big changes between '83 and '84?
If yes, why Petrov altered this part of jump?
-- Pogo
"It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory." W. Edwards Deming
"It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory." W. Edwards Deming
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Re: Negative Inversion!
PVDaddy wrote:I am sorry that I confused you with my improper use of the word "tangent" in an earlier post.
Thanks for your concern. I just see it geometrically as congruent circles. Even if it were a tangent line or tangential it seems it could be charted in either quadrant.
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Re: Negative Inversion!
Pogo Stick wrote:?..
He is totally inverted before pole recoiled. In some frames, body vertical angle looks like greater than 90 degree (negative inversion?). Right before fly-away his body is in strange position - twisted back in inverted C.
...
Barely one year later in London (5.90m) and Rome (5.94m) his jump looks different (both can be found easily on YouTube). The camera angles are similar to Helsinki video. They look now like classic Bubka. There is no more such pronounced kip and pole covering - just smooth transition from swing to extension.
...
Does my eyes, bad angle and poor video quality are fooling me or he (they) introduced some pretty big changes between '83 and '84?
If yes, why Petrov altered this part of jump?
IMHO...
I have similar thoughts and observations as you have outlined...
My conclusion was akin to the application of Roman's statements and concepts pertaining to a continuous bio feedback loop (am paraphrasing) In as much as it appears that SBubka has conditioned (over conditioned) the swing, cover, hip extension in a maximum manner with respect to pole and grip at that point in time....(earlier footage)
Now, hypothetically inferring... IMHO
in subsequent years he is on stiffer/larger - poles/grips in which the earlier hyper-developed swing mechanics "Time Up" in an optimal manner which is near his peak performance and output...
All of the aforementioned is purely hypothetical and based on observational inferences only...
thoughts... random complaints...????!!))
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Re: Negative Inversion!
Wow did anybody else notice?
I was mentally going over Buka's first 6 Meter vault ( The benefit one gets from visualization is AMAZING and will be discussed in the next topic of training methods), looking for all the elements described in agenda 21 (That he performed in his famous vault). When we (Me and Bubka. LOL) got to the part he was negatively inverted, I was saying to myself "Bottom hand Push, Top hand Push". I noticed that he didn't Top hand push very hard on this vault? I Thought to myself WOW, wonder what his bar clearance would have been on this vault if he had? Evidently he had the same thought and decided to push again, on a pole that wasn't there? Must be nice to have the time to perform two top hand pushes on the same vault AND STILL break the world record!
Oh the benefits of Negative Inversion!
Check it out! Frames :23-:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyzkuLMJFNg
I was mentally going over Buka's first 6 Meter vault ( The benefit one gets from visualization is AMAZING and will be discussed in the next topic of training methods), looking for all the elements described in agenda 21 (That he performed in his famous vault). When we (Me and Bubka. LOL) got to the part he was negatively inverted, I was saying to myself "Bottom hand Push, Top hand Push". I noticed that he didn't Top hand push very hard on this vault? I Thought to myself WOW, wonder what his bar clearance would have been on this vault if he had? Evidently he had the same thought and decided to push again, on a pole that wasn't there? Must be nice to have the time to perform two top hand pushes on the same vault AND STILL break the world record!
Oh the benefits of Negative Inversion!
Check it out! Frames :23-:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyzkuLMJFNg
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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Re: Negative Inversion!
PVDaddy wrote:Wow did anybody else notice?
..."Bottom hand Push, Top hand Push". I noticed that he didn't Top hand push very hard on this vault?
IMHO
the over emphasized "Push" motions that you are focusing on are TECHNICAL ERRORS that are absent in the best performances
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Re: Negative Inversion!
coachjvinson wrote:PVDaddy wrote:Wow did anybody else notice?
..."Bottom hand Push, Top hand Push". I noticed that he didn't Top hand push very hard on this vault?
IMHO
the over emphasized "Push" motions that you are focusing on are TECHNICAL ERRORS that are absent in the best performances
Case in point... frames from 4:15 - 4:25 approximate - the velocity off the top of the pole is such that the push/push motions are minimal...
My point is that this is an ideal goal/objective and is a perspective which I was reluctant to accept at first...
The best coaches are patiently persistant; a character quality for which I am grateful...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUPBl4xT ... re=mh_lolz
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Re: Negative Inversion!
coachjvinson wrote:coachjvinson wrote:PVDaddy wrote:Wow did anybody else notice?
..."Bottom hand Push, Top hand Push". I noticed that he didn't Top hand push very hard on this vault?
IMHO
the over emphasized "Push" motions that you are focusing on are TECHNICAL ERRORS that are absent in the best performances
Case in point... frames from 4:15 - 4:25 approximate - the velocity off the top of the pole is such that the push/push motions are minimal...
My point is that this is an ideal goal/objective and is a perspective which I was reluctant to accept at first...
The best coaches are patiently persistant; a character quality for which I am grateful...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUPBl4xT ... re=mh_lolz
even more, the same attempt viewed in real time at 3:40...
It would appear that a conscious final effort to push off the top would be counter productive...
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Re: Negative Inversion!
coachjvinson wrote:Pogo Stick wrote:?..
He is totally inverted before pole recoiled. In some frames, body vertical angle looks like greater than 90 degree (negative inversion?). Right before fly-away his body is in strange position - twisted back in inverted C.
...
Barely one year later in London (5.90m) and Rome (5.94m) his jump looks different (both can be found easily on YouTube). The camera angles are similar to Helsinki video. They look now like classic Bubka. There is no more such pronounced kip and pole covering - just smooth transition from swing to extension.
...
Does my eyes, bad angle and poor video quality are fooling me or he (they) introduced some pretty big changes between '83 and '84?
If yes, why Petrov altered this part of jump?
IMHO...
I have similar thoughts and observations as you have outlined...
My conclusion was akin to the application of Roman's statements and concepts pertaining to a continuous bio feedback loop (am paraphrasing) In as much as it appears that SBubka has conditioned (over conditioned) the swing, cover, hip extension in a maximum manner with respect to pole and grip at that point in time....(earlier footage)
Now, hypothetically inferring... IMHO
in subsequent years he is on stiffer/larger - poles/grips in which the earlier hyper-developed swing mechanics "Time Up" in an optimal manner which is near his peak performance and output...
All of the aforementioned is purely hypothetical and based on observational inferences only...
thoughts... random complaints...????!!))
I agree with you. My uneducated guess is: inefficiency. Such over-covering redirect part of energy generated by swing in wrong direction (back and up, instead of forward and up). Energy added by kip probably cannot compensate enough to recover lost energy (and time) on stiffer poles. That smooth transition from swing to inversion he was performing later, without changing vector direction is probably more energy efficient (see Altius video from Sidney OG).
-- Pogo
"It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory." W. Edwards Deming
"It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory." W. Edwards Deming
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Re: Negative Inversion!
Coachjvinson
If you read Agenda 21 especially the updated (last One) I make the point AS EPHATICALLY as I can[b] THAT ANY ELEMENT (and there are many of them not just the pushes either) THAT ADD SENERGY TO THE VAULT IS CRITICAL[/b] . Evidently Bubka thinks its important enough to make an extra effort in that vault to do it twice! Look at the Top hand push in his famouse vault (The best vault ever if bar clearance matter any?) He is a beast with that Push? Here it is again. Frames 1:56-2:05 and 5:11-5:16.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyzkuLMJFNg
I have also seen films of Tarasov were he makes his bottom hand push as wicked as top hand pushes! Cant find it at the moment but can, if I look hard enough Anyway here s one of Tarasov Pushing also. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H25TG1ee80
You do make the point that it is possible to still vault high without a good push but coach I see him pushing hard in his best, so must respectfully disagree. They are all important!
IMHO
the over emphasized "Push" motions that you are focusing on are TECHNICAL ERRORS that are absent in the best performances
If you read Agenda 21 especially the updated (last One) I make the point AS EPHATICALLY as I can[b] THAT ANY ELEMENT (and there are many of them not just the pushes either) THAT ADD SENERGY TO THE VAULT IS CRITICAL[/b] . Evidently Bubka thinks its important enough to make an extra effort in that vault to do it twice! Look at the Top hand push in his famouse vault (The best vault ever if bar clearance matter any?) He is a beast with that Push? Here it is again. Frames 1:56-2:05 and 5:11-5:16.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyzkuLMJFNg
I have also seen films of Tarasov were he makes his bottom hand push as wicked as top hand pushes! Cant find it at the moment but can, if I look hard enough Anyway here s one of Tarasov Pushing also. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H25TG1ee80
You do make the point that it is possible to still vault high without a good push but coach I see him pushing hard in his best, so must respectfully disagree. They are all important!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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Re: Negative Inversion!
Here it is again. Sorry posted wrong link first time. Frames 1:56-2:05 and 5:11-5:16. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QribYk ... sults_main
You think that push is a Technical Mistake and didn't add vertical energy?
You think that push is a Technical Mistake and didn't add vertical energy?
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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Re: Negative Inversion!
PVDaddy wrote:You do make the point that it is possible to still vault high without a good push but coach I see him pushing hard in his best, so must respectfully disagree. They are all important!
Do not be confused, I am not making this point at all...
The point that I am making is...
In order to vault high, an emphasis on pushing off the top is counter productive...IMHO
If you are on top of the pole long enough to push aggressively and forcefully off the top..
AND/OR you are required to push aggressively and forcefully off the top to clear the bar...
then the swing to cover was slow and the hip extension and turn was late...
AND/OR
the vaulter is over-gripping...
better to be fluid and quick with finesse at this stage...
This cannot be accomplished if your mechanics are slow/late with respect to swing, cover, extend and disconnect from the pole...
The wrist flick that you observe with respect to SBubka, both in the early video and in the '97 video, is a finesse movement...
After reading your posts on achieving 21' - I have a few questions...
In your observations, where/when/how do the applications of maximal force occur in your analysis of the Vaulter Pole System with respect to the most powerful muscular effort(s) occurring after the Run/Takeoff/Swing...
Please define where you consider the swing element complete and the next phase initiated...
Further,
Why does Bubka (or any vaulter) desire "Negative Inversion"?
How does Bubka (or any vaulter) obtain "Negative Inversion"?
I will preface the aforementioned by stating that I am an advocate of obtaining this position; specifically the movements required to get "Hyper Vertical" - However, I believe that my understanding varies from that which you have published or are in the process of publishing...
Respectfully...
Albert Einstein wrote:"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
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Re: Negative Inversion!
Coachjvinsen:
Ok , I think what your saying here is that, if anything took focus away from the run up, plant and swing (This would be my top 3, what is yours) it would be counter productive. I completely agree with that!
Opening Sentence in Agenda 21, just before I start Identifying all the element that add energy to the system
In order to vault high, an emphasis on pushing off the top is counter productive...IMH
Ok , I think what your saying here is that, if anything took focus away from the run up, plant and swing (This would be my top 3, what is yours) it would be counter productive. I completely agree with that!
Opening Sentence in Agenda 21, just before I start Identifying all the element that add energy to the system
The majority of kinetic energy generated during the vault occurs at run up and is maximally transferred to the pole (Pole loading) with a Free take off into the stretched inverted C position, it is imperative that this phase of the vault be mastered!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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