Negative Inversion!

[Decamouse]

Whoa -- think someone needs a few deep breaths - or maybe a few someones -- this is getting a bit out there

Should we start talking about meeting behind the woodshed?

[coachjvinson]

The only value in this post is Kirk's reply and involvement; especially in the fact that this entire concept is covered in the Jump to Split/Bryde Bend posts which I am hyperlinking here -

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15483

This covers the essential last opportunity for developing pole speed and momentum from swing technique and swing power - the first opportunity of course is the run and take off...

Kirk this information that you outlined and have shared is/was and will continue to be AWESOME and essentially valuable for every athlete and coach - even if they do not accept/attempt the model 100% - the information and principles are certainly top notch: thank you for your contribution to the collective knowledge base...

Even More...

Thank you for your contribution and representation in the Olympic Games - I can only imagine what it was like to be in Munich at that time...

V

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom.

[PVDaddy]

That's correct.

To cover the pole, you need to stay behind the chord. And when you stay behind the chord, you're effectively "shooting past vertical". That's all there is to it.

This gives you the vertical component of your momentum.

Your horizontal

By the way Genius, why don.t you try saying something I already haven't on multiple occasions?

Why you still posting here K-I-R-k? Maybe its time for you to steal from me by starting your own thread call "it over covering the pole or something"?

[coachjvinson]

The only value in this post is Kirk's reply and involvement; especially in the fact that this entire concept is covered in the Jump to Split/Bryde Bend posts which I am hyperlinking here -

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15483

This covers the essential last opportunity for developing pole speed and momentum from swing technique and swing power - the first opportunity of course is the run and take off...

Kirk this information that you outlined and have shared is/was and will continue to be AWESOME and essentially valuable for every athlete and coach - even if they do not accept/attempt the model 100% - the information and principles are certainly top notch: thank you for your contribution to the collective knowledge base...

Even More...

Thank you for your contribution and representation in the Olympic Games - I can only imagine what it was like to be in Munich at that time...

V

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom.

[PVDaddy]

Coachjvinsen, you have added zero to this discussion since you have been here. Your all about taking and ZERO giving!

You think Negative inversion is dangerous. I say what is dangerous to the future of pole vaulting is coaches like you who are afraid to get there vaulters vertical to begin with or over vertical. By the way its the BIGGEST problem with your very talented vaulter who still does not come close to getting on top of the pole and pulls from underneath? Its sad to think that you have probably held him back. Based on your comments and lack of ability to answer a few question Im convinced his success had way more to do with his natural athletic abilities than your coaching. Would love to see what he could do with a coach who is NOT AFRAID to get him on top of the pole!The methods that I have advocated on here for obtaining that position through the C-I-L position are all extremely beneficial and you know that coach, so steal away! Got anything to give back?You could not even tell me why you thought negative inversion was important or why there is no push in the vault yet you want me to answer your silly riddles? LOL Buy the way coach were is your own personal pole vault method? Still waiting? You never will because its so much easier for you to just sit back and take from others with no giving back! You criticized mine now man up and show me your? YOU WONT CUZ YOU GOT NOTHING DUDE! W-E-A-K!!!!!

[coachjvinson]

By the way its the BIGGEST problem with your very talented vaulter who still does not come close to getting on top of the pole and pulls from underneath? Its sad to think that you have probably held him back.

Which one?

[PVDaddy]

Like I said Share some valuable insights, in your own word,with us as to what you focus on in your coaching methods, and how you do it?
Try your best to be descriptive and specific? Take us through the various stages of the vault. Still waiting? Doubt you will!

[coachjvinson]

You can always tell a real friend: when you've made a fool of yourself he doesn't feel you've done a permanent job.

Your motive for posting on this thread from the very beginning was never to try to have amiable dialoque, but to disrupt this thread that you are obviously jealous because I took a great concept and expounded on it benefits well beyond what you were ever capable! You are "beyond" obvious! I good term for it " Negative Obvious!" By the way I would put Agenda 21 up against your Bryde bend theory any day of the week! Sorry to burst YOUR bubble, I'm not a fan!

If you realized how much Kirk, myself and others believe in and have a conceptual understanding of the dynamic addressed in this thread, you wouldn't go there; the quoted comment, nor these entire recent posts, as doing so really undermines your position...

I have carefully and thoughtfully read your posts; as stated, I can see your enthusiasm and I do not want to harsh you.

After carefully reading your comments, I do have a few concerns. Forgive me for my elusiveness of sorts; however, my questions are directed and Socratic in nature; questions in which I have been trying to lead you to an answer, the content of which I have not observed you comment on nearly enough, nor accurately enough, nor with an appropriate emphasis as the content of which is entirely foundational to this concept and safety in general.

I do want to thank you for your careful and thorough responses: I do believe that if you are more concise in your posts that your message will be communicated more clearly.

No man is so foolish but he may sometimes give another good counsel, and no man so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other counsel than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for a master.

I am simply trying to state that my question is much more specific and direct than your responses...
My effort and intention is to discuss this a single phase at a time...

Also,

1) Perfect run up, pole Cary and plant into free take off. Was never my intent to describe this in detail. You already know this.

...occurring after the Run/Takeoff/Swing...

Not really sure nor certain how this was misunderstood by yourself, perhaps it was simply haste...

I am not stating that the aforementioned is unimportant...

Let me simplify... please do your best to do the same

...In your observations, where/when/how do the applications of maximal force occur in your analysis of the Vaulter Pole System with respect to the most powerful muscular effort(s) occurring after the Run/Takeoff/Swing...

Please define where you consider the swing element complete and the next phase initiated...

Please read and consider carefully: with the same care and attention that you are requesting from your audience...

Finally, it's beneficial at this point for me to rephrase my last 2 questions pertaining to the why and how... in order to discuss the last two items in an ideological and conceptual sense as compared to a literal sense -

If the vaulter interacts with the pole in a manner in which a position of "over rotation" can occur...
What does this interaction accomplish? Please describe in a specific and concise manner utilizing as few words as is practical...

AND

If the vaulter interacts with the pole in a manner in which the hips extend to inversion in in a direction slightly more towards the runway, as compared to exactly vertical or slightly towards the bar...
What does this interaction accomplish? Please describe in a specific and concise manner utilizing as few words as is practical...

What is the essential element required in order for the vaulter/athlete to SAFELY extend in this manner with the heels pressed intentionally away from the bar??? In your observations...???

As stated before, these are principles and objectives that I support... when properly applied and understood, according to basic physics and biomechanics in order that SAFETY is foremost...

So... COACH,
How are you keeping your athletes safe when interpreting your hypothetical agenda?

I am simply asking you to describe concisely why these items are foundational within the methods you are advocating?

Do you understand how to properly apply the methods you are advocating?
If so, please elaborate; concisely...

the pole is uncoiling and rotating toward vertical.

How do you believe this happens, especially on poles the size and flex of elites? Simply from the run, plant and free takeoff?

As the vaulter begins the bottom hand push to help propel the hips and assist the turn, the pole is uncoiling and rotating toward vertical.All of these actions are forcing the vaulters body to rotate toward the crossbar.

"All of these actions..."???? The uncoiling pole which rotates towards vertical??? Again, what is the cause, how is this influenced??

The spine of the vaulter will start to be forced toward (angled toward) the crossbar the moment the bottom hand push begins and this will continue through flyaway. This forward lean toward the crossbar WILL happen regardless of the vaulters inverted position...

Not necessarily, the vaulter and his/her spine can go in every other direction as well...
What causes the vaulters' COM to travel SAFELY into the pit... mysterious pole movement?

All of the same elements that make negative inversion possible are also the same elements that produce the best vaults.

Still waiting for you to describe the essential element... and how to obtain the essential element...

BRIEFLY AND CONCISELY

[b]The BIGGEST mistakes that most elite vaulters make and why they cant obtain negative inversion, is what they do (or do not do) after take-off.

Probably not a wise way to garner any interest nor support whatsoever: you have also readily criticized several of the best minds in the business, some of which were former elites themselves. Being a Professional in this business involves selfless dedication and sacrifice of which I can only aspire to comprehend...

The importance of chest penetration into the full body stretched invert-C position cannot be over-stressed. You must allow the swing to occur naturally at the top hand (The first axis of rotation. Same way the monkey swings on the branches) from inverted-C to active-I (when the body is straight, with heal extended pointing toward the pit).

???
sure about this one???

PVD

In your observation and opinion, what are the primary and essential results and outcomes of an effective swing which are essential and necessary to achieve this high level - hyper inverted - skill??
Concisely and Specifically...
In as few words as possible...

Same way the monkey swings on the branches

Ohhh... now this is really clear and starting to make perfect sense...
NONSENSE...

.... and Petrov knows this.

[coachjvinson]

By the way its the BIGGEST problem with your very talented vaulter who still does not come close to getting on top of the pole and pulls from underneath? Its sad to think that you have probably held him back.

Which one?

Are you referencing the Junior that went from 13' to over 15' in less than 6 months? Or someone else?

[KirkB]

In my first post on this thread, I said:

I'm not at all impressed with the continual sparring that you're STILL having with Altius - seems like same-old, same-old. But that's between you and him - let's not go there, eh?

This was intended to be a WARNING to PVDaddy, that if he went there, I would NOT spar with him.

That was my one and only warning to him - which he failed to heed. He somehow twisted and contorted this warning into an accusation of me baiting him, but that was not my intent at all. He misreads almost everything that anyone says to him.

I honestly thought that he had improved his interpersonal relationships with people since our "discussions" 3 years ago, but my bad for being so willing to forget the past and open a new chapter. But no such luck. It's same-old, same-old.

This thread has become just as much a waste of time as the first Agenda 21 thread. There's W-A-A-A-Y too much name calling and false accusations, and far too little "Advanced Technique" discussion.

I know that I was sensitive to my name being mispelled THREE TIMES, but I feel justified in asking that it gets spelled right in the future. It's really insulting to continuously hear your name mispronounced or mispelled - to me it's common courtesy, and if you're not sure how to spell someone's name, you should take the time to check it. So I'm not at all sorry for calling him out on those typos. I don't think this is unreasonable of me.

I admit that I was being picky re the last dialogue v. dialoque typo, but that was after the THIRD time he mispelled my name. It won't happen again, because I won't be responding to his pointless personal attacks - on me, on Coach Vinson, on Altius, on Tom, or on anyone else. Enough is enough. It's just not worth the grief.

RG, I'm actually quite surprised that you called me on the typos and you called Coach Vinson for posting too many pics, but you didn't call PVDaddy on his personal attacks. In the past, personal attacks on PVP were NOT OK. By your silence, can we assume that it's "anything goes" now?

Kirk Bryde

[altius]

Come on guys. I like a bar room brawl as much as the next wimp but we have allowed it to get a bit personal - and we have even never met!!! I am just reading a book about the origins of Islam and it is amazing to find that they go back much further than the prophet -whose name I must not mention - ever lets on. So who really knows where either Islam or the Petrov model all started. I always give credit to Petrov because that is who first introduced me to the critical concepts, and because I have always understood that he lead a team of other coaches, biomechanists and gymnastic coaches in a search for ways to beat the Americans in the vault. Not sure if it is true but the story made sense to me -perhaps Roman can clarify it. Whatever he did it is clear that he looked at what had happened in the past - especially with the stiff pole vaulters like Warmerdam. While I know he was influenced by them I am not sure if he developed his whole philosophy around their technical models - which it would seems - were much more standardised than is presently the case with flexible poles - unfortunately!!!

Vitali's english is not good enough and my Russian is certainly not (can't speak a word outside of vodka and spasibo) for us to ever have indulged in complex discussions about the evolution of his ideas - although I must admit that a couple of shots of brandy each did help communication late at night. But whatever. Like the prophet I cannot name it is likely that his ideas and philosophy had deeper origins that we know of. However I don't think he picked up anything from the Bride Bend - I am pretty sure he had never heard of it. A better bet is Krysinski - a truly great coach (two successive Olympic Champions) whose first winner Slusarski, definitely used a free take off - that is if some great black and white film I have seen, is evidence enough.

Finally let me say while the debate can rage - hopefully without it becoming really offensive - my interests (as a teacher first and foremost, not a coach) have always been to try to simplify and clarify complex issues so that beginners can understand them. I think that is where we should go now in this discussion.

I hope Becca has picked herself up off the floor after collapsing at the thought of me being a peacemaker!!!!!!!!

[KirkB]

... I don't think he picked up anything from the Bride Bend - I am pretty sure he had never heard of it.

I'm POSITIVE he never heard of it ... it's the Bryde Bend!

I TOLD you that I was sensitive to my name being mispelled!

But he should have heard of Isaksson, Roberts, and Tulley. I think they all had free takeoffs - and they're all WR holders from the late 1960s through the 1970s.

And while we're at it, Isaksson was the one that invented the high pole carry. Not myself, and not Bubka or Petrov. It was Isaakson - no doubt about it.

Kirk Bryde