Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

[KirkB]

I think maybe I should have included Steve Smith with the other 1970s vaulters that vaulted "like Bubka before Bubka".

He certainly qualifies as a WR holder, with a PR of 5.61 in 1975. I competed against him at Modesto in 1971, and I saw him clear 18-0 at the 1972 Trials, but I just don't remember his technique well enough to comment on whether he had a free takeoff or not, and I couldn't find any vids.

He wasn't a tuck-and-shooter - I remember that much!

Kirk Bryde

[botakatobi]

Dick Tomlinson, Steve's coach taught Steve to damage the pole as much as possible while still on the runway.

I did some training with Dick and Steve and witnessed this first hand.

Damaging the pole at takeoff with the lower arm would make it impossible to perform a free takeoff.

[dj]

good morning,

there were some coaches teaching a under takeoff and "force" bending of the pole back in the early days of fiber glass... i attended a clinic in Tampa, 1969 and the "presenter" went that route..

when my brother questioned his logic, physics and the "soundness" of his mind….. he rudely told us to "shut-up" or leave the session... i think my brother told him to shove his mouth up his butt, before he did it for him, or something to that effect...

i had a 16m film i got from The Arkansas State library in Oct. 1974... that had the great steel vaulters from the 1950's practicing/emphasizing a free/out takeoff with their logic being you get a much better swing from "behind" the pole AND more importantly you don't get your arm yanked out of it's socket at the takeoff and be forced to land back on the runway, which happened all the time when you didn't do it right.

Dj

Ps. By the way there are printed articles by the "track guru" that spoke in
Tampa.

[altius]

Whatever the history, real or imagined, the fact is that relatively few coaches in the USA appear to understand the model and even fewer athletes use it. Take a look at the best male college athletes at the NCAA indoors and tell me that i am wrong.

[dj]

You are correct to a degree... Few are using the correct technique world wide.

Several reasons. To many cooks not enough chefs. To easy to carry fiberglass down the runway when you should NOT be vaulting in the first place. To easy to "force bend" and still clear a 7 foot bar. 9 feet should be a minimum 9th grade standard starting height. Girl or guy. Poles designed wrong.

It takes the right physics if you want to duplicate the same technique. Speed, technique, grip and pole design.

Dj

[AVC Coach]

Several reasons. To many cooks not enough chefs. To easy to carry fiberglass down the runway when you should NOT be vaulting in the first place. To easy to "force bend" and still clear a 7 foot bar. 9 feet should be a minimum 9th grade standard starting height. Girl or guy. Poles designed wrong.

I would have to disagree with this, DJ. We live in an era of "right now" so when I go out and recruit young, potential vaulters, they need to make some bars asap! There are far too many other sports that they can play right now and have a certain level of instant success. Unfortunately, it's a battle just to keep them coming out to vault sometimes. I might see the potential but if the kids or their parents don't see a little early success, I lose, the other sports win out and that potential is meaningless!

[grandevaulter]

I'll agree with AVC coach on this one. Fortunately I read enough posts here and broke down and bought the book BTB2 and with the pages of detailed instructions and illustrations I am able to help the kids get results more rapidly than I did before. In the video, Alan suggests that we let the young vaulter clear a bungy soon after learning the simple drills. That is what keeps them coming back.

I do believe that the Petrov/ Bubka model that is taught at Adelaide is the best way to teach the young kids and expect the book and the videos to be utilized by wise coaches for decades. I do keep D.J.s mid and grip/bar height chart in my pocket and scribble the kids steps and mids. I believe it to be an accurate tool. The dedicated research that you guys do makes our jobs easier. Thanks !

[KirkB]

... those who are now attempting to show that they knew all this stuff years ago ...

Who? Me?

... they really were doing good things but didn't understand how good they were until a model appeared that seemed to match what they had been doing.

This is similar to, but not exactly what I've been trying to say - but I fear that you've misunderstood me. It shouldn't be all that surprising that some of our 1970s technique was like Bubka's, since we all understood the physics of the pole vault quite well. No one "invented" this physics - we all just "discovered" the same physics!

I knew that I was "light years" ahead of my competition re my "Bubka before Bubka" technique, and I would not have been a world-class vaulter without it - due to my slowness down the runway. I've been very clear about this.

However, I look at it from the opposite angle from where you look at it. When I returned to the pole vault community in 2004 (after a 30 year absence - wife and kids and other sports) by contacting Coach Pat Licari, I was not aware of any details of Bubka's technique, or Petrov's Model, or your books. Some of my first discussions with Pat were re my surprise that the technique of the elite vaulters that were tucking and shooting and jumping "under" (like Okkert Brits, Tim Mack and Derek Miles) were considered (by some coaches) sound, modern pole vaulting, and re my surprise that my exaggerated trail leg swing was not practiced by any vaulters today - regardless of their PV model.

But over time (in 2008 - here - http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15483&p=111145&hilit=kirk+bubka+before+bubka#p111145), and especially after reading Roman's Continuous Chain Model and his PV Manifesto, and after reading your BTB2 book, I came "out of the closet" so to speak - revealing to you that my technique WAS quite similar to Bubka's. I would even say that Bubka had a better trail leg than most - but not as optimal as mine. He had more speed, so he didn't need (or have time for) a trail leg kick-back, whereas I had less speed, so I needed (and had time for) a stronger trail leg kick-back.

I have never suggested that Petrov was not the one coach that "put it all together" or that Bubka was not the one vaulter that "put it all together" or that you were not the one coach/writer that explained it in a way that "put it all together". Petrov DID and Bubka DID and you DID. I have always agreed with that - 100%.

I was merely trying to inform you - when you asked to be informed of any vaulter that jumped "like Bubka before Bubka" - that the technique that myself and other 1970s vaulters had been using was "like Bubka before Bubka". Although none of us "put it all together", we did show signs of brilliance that actually led the way to Petrov and Bubka and yourself POPULARIZING, PRACTICING, and PUBLISHING what is now known as the Petrov Model.

Now that you're informed - at your request - I can't understand why you're back-pedaling. History must be recorded as it actually happened - untainted by any bias (whether intentional or accidental). I think your bias was unintentional, since you were unaware of the 1970s vaulter's techniques until we brought your attention to them. As historical errors are discovered, they must be corrected. The truth must prevail.

You can brush this off as a "whatever", but it is what it is. Plain and simple. No more, no less.

Kirk Bryde

[altius]

Sorry to upset you – yet again - Kirk B old son. I do value your contributions and expertise but I still find it difficult to accept that there were all these folk out there “Jumping like Bubka” before Bubka. I do understand that most great ideas and inventions have precursors that often are forgotten or simply remain unknown, but on this issue I have yet to be convinced. You will have to forgive me but we are all products of our experience. For better or worse I had to pretend to be an ‘Academic” for much of my career. There you come to understand that there must be evidence to support any claim – simply stating that you will have to accept the fact that "I did this or I did that" will simply have you laughed off the planet if you do not have evidence – often evidence obtained through a rigorous piece of research.

Now I have never asked for that kind of evidence but at the very least I would like to see film or the details of any paper or article that confirms the story. So what do we have – many claims from many individuals about what happened in the 1970s – but I have only seen one piece of film – of Tully –that suggests that he at least was using elements of the
Petrov/Bubka model. But even then I am not sure of the date of that film –was it 84/85 –I just don’t know. Yes film of Slusaski from 1980 confirms a free take off –and that may or may not have influenced Petrov – my guess is that it did although he never mentions it. He said he was influenced by Dave Roberts, but film of him that I have seen does not confirm that he was really doing Bubka like things. But if someone has some film that proves me wrong I will be happy to see it and amend my view accordingly.

Now I am certain that film was taken of all of the great North American vaulters during that period. It certainly was of all the great throwers at that time –and I still have some of it! So where is that film – show it to me and I may become a true believer. Or show me an article from that period that details these ideas. Even I made some money from articles sent to Scholastic Coach –and I certainly learned a lot from those journals – but about the throws and –with the exception of the vault – the jumps. Now perhaps I missed something. Again give me the reference and I will try and find the article – better still send me a copy.

The other issue for me is the heights jumped by the athletes of that period. Because I really do believe that athletes exploiting the elements of technique that underpin the Petrov model will jump higher – relative to their potential – than those who do not. I know this because I know how amateurish our set up is in Adelaide, how limited the physical ability of the majority of our athletes was, how relatively poor the training environment was (no indoor facility for example), my time – as a volunteer coach getting to training at 5pm after a full day at work -split between recruiting beginners (because only one school here has a pad – and it is not legal) while trying to find time to help those who had made a commitment, a terrible competition program with few opportunities to compete away from the single track in Adelaide etc etc. Only by developing a minimalist approach to teaching the model – ie retaining the absolute key elements – could I help vaulters here make progress. But they did. And the reason they did was the Petrov model. However with no college scholarships and the worst competitive structure in the developed world – perhaps Canada is on the same level - a selection process for National teams that bordered on the criminal, most vaulters stopped when they went to work or began serious studies, so we have never seen the potential realised.

Then again Bubka jumped 5.80 at 20, Tarasov 5.80 at 19, so why were not older, more experienced athletes in North America not jumping higher if they were using the same technical model.

If we take a look at what the biomechanists were saying during the period we find that they were still recommending that athletes use the bottom arm to initiate bend before they leave the ground. While they are rarely if ever ahead of the pack when it comes to track and field techniques, they usually catch up fast. Why did they not see the merits of this model and begin to extoll its virtues in the period you mention? You did use the term "Brilliant" and you probably were -but I just want to see more evidence Kirk.

Just questions! And I do not know the answers! But until I get some evidence, of the kind indicated, ie film of Tully, I am simply not going to accept more claims about pre Petrov technical developments being employed by various athletes - even someone as honest, ethical and wise as you surely are - during the period you mention.

So I will give a specific example of what I think it is reasonable to expect. In 1989 after mulling Petrovs ideas on the take off over for three years, I wrote an article for our coaching magazine, ‘Modern Athlete and Coach’, titled “The Russian Revolution in the pole vault” in which I introduced the term “Pre jump”. As I indicated earlier it was reprinted in Leichtathletic the following year. Here is an example of what I mean – evidence of a new concept being put out for all to consider at a specific time and in a way that anyone can access. The fact that the idea was rubbished by all and sundry is irrelevant – well almost irrelevant. It was subsequently followed up with film of Wendy Young actually using a pre jump. And of course on the dvd there is a clip showing how it can be introduced. The evidence is there for all to see, debate and deconstruct. Show us the money!! Sorry -- the film or the article!

[PV2020]

Can I point out that the USA has 4 athletes under the age of 21 over 5.60 this year. Sam Kendricks just jumped 5.81 at age 20, Andrew Irwin has gone over 5.72 (He did when he was 19), Jake Blankenship has gone 5.61 at as a true freshman, as well as American raised Shawn Barber who has gone 5.71 at age 18.

You state the country's college system is under performing but I will argue against that right now. The system seems to be working just fine getting the athletes to the elite level. It just stops when they loose their full time funding after graduation and they have to train while working full time, not have a full medical staff, and have to buy their own equipment and travel expenses.

[KirkB]

I'm not upset - I'm just INSISTENT.

While I do appreciate your point re not very much (if any) scientific documentation of 1970s vaulters (and I agree with you on this point), it is indisputable that there were vaulters in the 1970s that "jumped like Bubka before Bubka". In fact, you AGREED in 2010 that there were! This fact is proven in vids - and you have seen these vids.

Does this quote sound familiar?

I am convinced - the clip shows Tully jumping like Bubka before Bubka! No doubt about it. Now all we need is Bryde jumping like Bubka and we have it made - but I will take your word for it. It is weird tho because when I was trying to sort the vault out back in the late seventies and early eighties I watched film of every jumper I could get hold of - including Tully but never saw anyone jump like the clip shows. I also watched him win silver in LA and again never saw a jump like that - but clearly I didnt know what I was seeing.

It should, because these are your words - on this thread: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=19421&hilit=altius+bryde&start=24

Start reading your post at the bottom of this page, and continue reading all of the next page. NOW does this sound familiar?

Maybe we just have to give this entire debate a rest, as we've already covered it exhaustively in 2010?

And you AGREED back then! A wise salesman once said that once you have the order, you should stop selling. So I'm stopping. But maybe I didn't stop soon enough. I HAD the order!

Kirk Bryde

[altius]

"You state the country's college system is under performing but I will argue against that right now. The system seems to be working just fine getting the athletes to the elite level."

IMHO NOT to the elite level! To a very good level yes - but i would argue that they may be getting there with techniques that may need radical improvement if they really are to reach elite level. Note that when I saw Jack Whitt in Oklahoma four? years ago as a high school senior I thought that he could eventually be a 6.00m jumper. I believe that to be true of a number of the athletes you name. However check their parameters now, grip height, pole stiffness, run up speed over last ten metres and then look at what they will need to do to jump 5.90/6.00m.

It just stops when they loose their full time funding after graduation and they have to train while working full time, not have a full medical staff, and have to buy their own equipment and travel expenses.

TRUE.

If you have followed my posts you will see that I have made this point repeatedly.

APOLOGIES FOR THE MESS. AND YES KIRK B - TIME TO MOVE ON - BUT WOULD LOVE TO SEE FILM.