Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

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Soar Like an Eagle
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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby Soar Like an Eagle » Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:09 pm

altius wrote:
PV2020 wrote:
"You state the country's college system is under performing but I will argue against that right now. The system seems to be working just fine getting the athletes to the elite level."

IMHO NOT to the elite level! To a very good level yes - but i would argue that they may be getting there with techniques that may need radical improvement if they really are to reach elite level. Note that when I saw Jack Whitt in Oklahoma four? years ago as a high school senior I thought that he could eventually be a 6.00m jumper. I believe that to be true of a number of the athletes you name. However check their parameters now, grip height, pole stiffness, run up speed over last ten metres and then look at what they will need to do to jump 5.90/6.00m.

It just stops when they loose their full time funding after graduation and they have to train while working full time, not have a full medical staff, and have to buy their own equipment and travel expenses.
TRUE.

If you have followed my posts you will see that I have made this point repeatedly.

APOLOGIES FOR THE MESS. AND YES KIRK B - TIME TO MOVE ON - BUT WOULD LOVE TO SEE FILM.


Contact Ron Morris with OnTrack http://www.ontrackandfield.com/main/ (800) 697-2999 and order Orra McMurry’s VHS Pole Vault Video and you will see great footage.

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altius
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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby altius » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:35 pm

Thanks for that advice -may be able to catch up with Ron this summer. If not I will get someone to send me a copy.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby dj » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:54 pm

Bubka before Bubka….

Guy Kochel 1974
The Take-Off-Page 13
During the takeoff the vaulter should feel that he is too far out from the box.
The lead knee (right for right handed vaulter) should have a quick hard drive in leaving the ground. The drive is forward and upward.

Swing and Rock Back-Page 14
During the swing phase the left leg leaves the ground and is kept as straight as possible until it catches up with the right leg.


As far as video or "pics' of the technique the technique (same physics) would not start to look like Bubka until the vaulters were holding 16 feet (the pole patterns made it difficult to get an "extended" left arm without having to force bend the pole- this made the same "attempt" at the technique, out, free, high, early plant with a straight swing trail leg, staying behind the pole, "look" very different. In 1982 I only remember two vaulters in the US, Jeff Ward and ?... Tully and Bell didn't hold 16 until after '1983… Roberts 18-8 jump on the "majic" pole was Bubka before Bubka. He was "trying' to use the same technique.. out, free, high plant, straight trail legswing..etc..etc..

Vaulters holding over 16 feet on a George Moore/Herb Jenks 5 meter pole had a good chance of getting the "symmetrical" bend that allowed the left arm to extend with "pushing" the pole.

By the way Tim Mack was making every effort to follow the correct physics of an out/free takeoff, straight leg swing, stay behind the pole, cover the arc of the pole… go vertical.. he was not and "under", press the pole on purpose. Like Bubka.. some jumps were better than others..

dj

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:26 pm

dj wrote:Tim Mack was making every effort to follow the correct physics of an out/free takeoff, straight leg swing, stay behind the pole, cover the arc of the pole… go vertical.. he was not an "under", press the pole on purpose.

Thanks for this clarification. I stand corrected.

Kirk Bryde
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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altius
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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby altius » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:16 pm

" By the way Tim Mack was making every effort to follow the correct physics of an out/free takeoff, straight leg swing, stay behind the pole, cover the arc of the pole… go vertical.. he was not and "under".

I bow to your great knowledge of the period between 1970 and 83 DJ BUT I would really appreciate it if someone could get Tim to confirm the story that until he saw Markov jump in Edmonton he was taking off under 13' - he then realised that he had to change and worked hard to move it out to over 14'. I know this has come up before and been debated but it would be great to confirm what he has to say on this topic. Even better to see clips of him before and after 2003." :yes:

Incidentally have you got any articles by Kochel - Scholastic coach???? would love to read them. Where did you get your quotes?
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby altius » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:20 pm

Swing and Rock Back-Page 14
"During the swing phase the left leg leaves the ground and is kept as straight as possible until it catches up with the right leg."

Now this is an interesting statement - I would love to know what he believed the left leg should do AFTER it caught up with the right leg- around the chord of the pole I presume. Did it stay long all the way over the top or did it pull into a tuck?
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby VaultPurple » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:26 pm

Tim Mack 1995 NCAA Indoor National Championships 5.60m

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4WxYq-VIv8

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:51 pm

Freeze-frame at 0:15 of Mack's 1995 vault reveals that he's bending the pole before his takeoff foot leaves the ground. He would have to be "under" for this to occur.

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altius
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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby altius » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:00 pm

Thanks VP -he looked pretty good even then!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby dj » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:40 pm

Allans… answers…

Thank you Allan for the compliment to my knowledge… I was fortunate to have the experiences "hands on"…. And lived them, studied them, researched and field tested my "theories", based on physics, concerning technique, physics, poles, differences between athletes from Warmerdam to Earl as a 16-8 jumper (1974-75) to Tully (1982-1988) to Tim Mack from college and specifically from August 1995 to his 5.90 jump at the trials in 2004.

That T-Mack jump is the one that should be viewed to know "where" he was Trying Extremely hard to go from at least August 1, 1995! To when it almost happened in 2000 and did happen in 2004.

I do have the VHS, somewhere, of Tim's training and focus over a 2/3 week time period, August 1995, of him establishing exactly and in detail what he had to do from that day forward to be a world class vaulter.

He came to California to confirm what "B" had been working with him on and to decide if he actually could be a world class vaulter or should he just walk away and get a job…

I think the USA as a whole, as should be all of the pole vault community in general, be satisfied/ecstatic with his choice to "change" in the direction of "physics" although it took NINE(9) years of sacrifice, extreme fortitude and guts to stayed with his focus… and he did kept a detailed log. But I see no reason for him to be "in the middle" of a "controversy" that will always have "nay-Sayers" or that is said "after" the fact.

What you see in that 2004 5.90 jump is as close as Bubka got, 99% of the time, to producing "Bubka" technique.

Kochel's book was published in 1981 but his methods had already been in practice in 1974 when I joined his staff. His book "Practical coaching Techniques for the Pole Vault" by Guy Kochel can be found online. But again what he says can be read and interpreted or twisted to fit one's own confirmation or denial, as you well know from your own writing.

Page 13

The plant should be completed before the take-off foot has reached the ground. The over all sensation during the plant phase should be that of driving into the pole, and being behind and under the pole. (this does not mean "be under at the takeoff) At the completion of the plant, there is an extension of the right and left arms upward through the pole. (this does not mean "press" it simply means reach.) he continues with; "The vaulter must not press with the left arm because it will cause a stall on top of the bar. It is important to remember that the key to a good vault is a high, early, and aggressive plant.1. The top hand should be directly over the take-off foot.

The left arm guides the pole into the box and, despite what many coaches teach, the left arm should be straight when the pole hits the box.
Page 15

And your "After"

The right knee drives……………………………straight left leg ….. action. Kotchel writes; The rock back action is continued until the hips are between the pole and head. (this is what was eventually termed "covering the arc of the pole")

Tim's 1995 NCAA vault is NOT his "corrected" technique, which he committed too and began to change in August of 1995.

Tim's 5.90 jump had a 13-8/4.16 take-off, 16-4/4.99 grip.. 9.3mps last two steps, 10cm/4 inches under, and was completed in 1.43 seconds with approximately a 30-32% bend.

Bubka's 1983 5.70 jump had these numbers… as reported by V. Mansvetov.. 3.98/13' takeoff, 4.99/5m grip.. 9.5mps… was completed in 1.45 sec.. with a 33% pole bend.

A Bubka 1987 jump had these numbers… as reported by McGinnis… 4.37/14-4 take-off, 16-10/5.10 grip, 9.5mps.. 10cm/3.9in under…..max height (6.12m) was obtained in 1.55 seconds one meter passed the bar… with 27.1% pole bend.

sincerely

dj

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby altius » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:07 pm

THANKS DJ. :yes:
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby dj » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:16 pm

hey

i'm not sure how my last post will read for everyone... but based on me "living" those years i can say the thing Bubka perfected and brought to our attention were being worked toward by many coaches from before fiberglass and continued on.

Bemiller was a student and strong advocate of Guy Kochel's work, even before Tim Mack started vaulting with him. So Tim was introduced to the "Guy Kotchel " "free takeoff", high plant and long swing leg… the time it took to put those "methods" into his system and for him to develop the physical skills looks to be about the length of time Bubka had with Petrov.

dj


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