visual cues while vertical

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PVDaddy
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:07 pm

Very good points that make a lot of sense. If you are consistently landing in the PLZ, You will feel safe! If you feel safe you can really push the limits of your inversion with confidence! That seems much more important, effective. and safe then pushing the limits of your grip height and stalling out! You may get good grip height, but you miss out on the BIGGER advantage Great FLY-AWAY! So my question is after you have established consistently landing in the PLZ why not always invert all the way to the top arm (It is the chord of the pole if you don't row)? According to Petrov, the pole has its fastest speed of recoil and the most energy transmitted at the very end. Seems like an Ideal time to take it ALL for a ride! The path of that recoil energy is being transmitted directly along the chord. If you are anywhere outside of that path, your body is not receiving the full amount of energy the pole has to offer. If you want it ALL then you better LINE UP WITH IT! So what I'm saying is, forget the the Plumb line, or even the pole. they are both outside of the energy. You want your bodies COG on the Chord! In order to get ON that Chord your body has to be against the top arm. Just my opinion. What do you think?
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:49 pm

PVDaddy wrote:Very good points that make a lot of sense. If you are consistently landing in the PLZ, You will feel safe! If you feel safe you can really push the limits of your inversion with confidence! That seems much more important, effective. and safe then pushing the limits of your grip height and stalling out! You may get good grip height, but you miss out on the BIGGER advantage Great FLY-AWAY! So my question is after you have established consistently landing in the PLZ why not always invert all the way to the top arm (It is the chord of the pole if you don't row)? According to Petrov, the pole has its fastest speed of recoil and the most energy transmitted at the very end. Seems like an Ideal time to take it ALL for a ride! The path of that recoil energy is being transmitted directly along the chord. If you are anywhere outside of that path, your body is not receiving the full amount of energy the pole has to offer. If you want it ALL then you better LINE UP WITH IT! So what I'm saying is, forget the the Plumb line, or even the pole. they are both outside of the energy. You want your bodies COG on the Chord! In order to get ON that Chord your body has to be against the top arm. Just my opinion. What do you think?

Yes, you "got it" now - that is ALMOST all correct. And it is "the chord of the pole", as you say. And you don't need to row if you have a strong downswing and upswing. You had me all the way to "... your body has to be against the top arm". Drop that misconception and you've got it!

I also agree with your "According to Petrov ..." statement. His statement is 100% in compliance with the laws of physics - well-known before our lifetimes. I equate it to throwing a javelin. The fastest speed of the javelin is just before you release it. That's the time to give it a final "flick-of-the-wrist" (I don't like the word "push") as your body leaves the pole in a skywards direction. And you need to throw the javelin "through" its shaft or it won't fly straight.

Another good analogy is a bow and arrow (often mentioned by Coach Charlie, and also by DJ). If the tip of the arrow isn't aligned with the shaft, then when you shoot it out of your bow, it's not going to go as far. In fact, if you "flag out" your arrow completely, your shot will completely fizzle. The shaft needs to be aligned with the tip.

In PV, the "tip" is your feet; the shaft is your body; the fiberglass pole is the fiberglass bow; and the chord of the pole is the direction that you pull the arrow back (which is the opposite direction that the bow will propel the arrow forwards). Your body (shaft) needs to be aligned with the chord of the pole (bow).

To tell you the truth, when I was vaulting, I really don't know if my body was against my top arm or not. That wasn't a visual cue of mine - it wasn't important to me at all. Instead, my MENTAL cue was to shoot as far up the chord as quickly as I could. This is while my body was unbending in unison with the pole unbending, so exactly where my body was in comparison with the pole wasn't important - it was a "moving target" ACTION, not a POSITION.

One simple drill to "feel" your body moving in the right direction (aligned with the chord) is to sit prone with the pole beside you, grip the pole with your normal grip (pole tip BEHIND you - not in front of you), then pike, then extend - pulling the pole directly in line with your body - and then finally "throwing" the pole away from you. All the while imagining that it's YOU that's flying off the top of the pole (instead of the pole flying away from you). Remember that this is a mental cue drill - not a visual cue drill. I often did this during meets while waiting for my turn to vault.

I've documented this concept in the Bryde Bend thread (maybe not this specific drill, and maybe not the bow-and-arrow analogy, but certainly the javelin analogy) - which I wrote about 5 years ago - so I'm not waffling on this concept at all. What I wrote 5 years ago is my best recollection of what I DID on the pole in 1971-72.

I'm actually quite pleased that you're making good sense now, PVDaddy ... almost! :yes:

Kirk Bryde
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:14 am

I like the emphasis you make about safely landing in the PLZ and how that gives the vaulter the confidence he/she needs to fully invert and exploit the uncoiling of the pole during flyaway.

Kirk:
Yes, you "got it" now - that is ALMOST all correct. And it is "the chord of the pole", as you say. And you don't need to row if you have a strong downswing and upswing. You had me all the way to "... your body has to be against the top arm". Drop that misconception and you've got it!


Kirk, my interpretation and understanding of Pfaff (I believe it was his article) and Clymer are different then yours. Although I believe he fails to make one point. They both emphasize the importance of bringing your body ALL the way to the top arm (perhaps you missed that or do not agree). I believe they are correct and the physics behind the rational make good sense to me. The top arm is the chord of the pole, If you do not row. I believe rowing is something a coach should never train for or the athlete attempt to do. If your body is not against the top arm it will not receive the full amount of energy the uncoiling pole has to offer because the bodies COG will not receive it all. If the body is away from the top arm (Flagged toward the pole), some of the energy will be dissipated ( between the am and the vaulters body) and will not be directed vertically UP the vaulters body. The body will also not be shot vertically.

Think about your bow and arrow analogy (funny you bring that up as I was thinking about that similarity today) for one moment.

I think of penetration through rock back not as pulling back the bow, but rather as STRINGING IT! When you string a bow you pull DOWN on it from the TOP (The top arm). The Bow has reached it maximum bend at rock back. If you relax downward pressure at any point (Rowing, stopping or slowing your swing or tucking, or not rocking back) during the stringing process the bow uncoils (I have literally experienced this very same thing when stringing a bow!). I must always maintain constant pressure (always staying with the chord of the pole) when I string a bow. Just before I put the string on it, I give it one quick pull toward the end (the top hand pull of the vault) and slip the string on (The bow is now strung). The string is the chord of the pole!

The vaulter is the arrow. The arrow is not resting on the middle of the string to be shot horizontally, but rather standing on top of the bow, above the string (chord), to be shot vertically. The string is cut. The bow (pole) uncoils. The energy is sent directly UP along the string (chord). If that arrow is not placed directly above the string, it will not receive the full amount of energy the bow has to offer. It also will also not shoot straight up (It will be shot the direction it is leaning and actually tipped more). I still believe this is what happens when a vaulter does not fully invert to the top arm.

Clymer says the Top hand is the chord of the pole when the arrow is shot. That is true and I believe it does receive the initial energy from the bow, however, I believe it is the bottom hand (The end of the arrow) that receives the final energy from the bow as it performs the downward push, and the bow completely uncoils and is in fact the notch of the arrow .
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:33 pm

I hadn't thought of YOUR bow and arrow analogy. I have, however, strung a fiberglass bow, so I fully understand your analogy. I suspect that this analogy may be lost on most people, because it's certainly not the normal way to fling an arrow skywards from a bow! :)

Analogies are meant to compare something that's complex or hard to understand in SIMPLE, everyday, layman's terms. Your analogy isn't so SIMPLE! :dazed:

But if you say so, that's fine with me. I get your point, and it's the same as my point - you need to align your body (arrow) with the chord of the pole, so that you shoot up in the right direction.

Re your point about what the top arm is doing, and what visual cues the vaulter should use, I've already stated my position, so I'm not going to rehash it.

Quite frankly, my source of information about what constitutes a good vault or a good visual cue or a good mental cue is my personal memory of my own vaults - not any research in the last decade (not even BTB2, altho I've read most of it and I agree with most of it). I did ready Clymer's vid text, and for the most part, it's good. I have not dug into Pfaff's articles, because it actually doesn't matter to me. For you, I think it's great that you're researching all of the writings of any and all PV coaches.

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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby agapit » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:12 am

My friends when an athlete gets into a handstand on the rings, he does not have or need visual cues on the top. What he has, is a vertical speed of the body that allows him to get into the hand stand in the first place, because visual cues will not get you there on the rings.

That speed is generated in the bottom of the exercise by upper body muscles, so the reason we do, in pole vaulting, the hand stand on the rings is to develop this specific physical effort on the bottom of the rotation and not per say to get into the hand stand. The hand stand is just a natural outcome of that correct effort.

Here is a excerpt from a section of the http://www.m640.com:

“With the continuous development of the natural rotation acceleration, resulting in ever greater vertical speed of the body, the center of mass of the body will continue to be higher and higher in relation to the top grip, while rotation speed of the pole towards the vertical, largely predetermined by the approach speed and the grip height will remain more constant. This will result in athletes releasing the pole at the earlier and earlier time, even before the pole reaches the vertical position. This completely abolishes in m640, so called, alignment of the athlete’s body with the pole, as such did not exist in the rigid pole vaulting. We will demonstrate this with illustrations and real life examples in the future articles.”

The content of the http://www.m640.com is in beta and is limited at this time, but we are continuously working on producing new sections. Today the membership section is open in beta.

Hope to see you there!
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:17 pm

agapit wrote: What he has, is a vertical speed of the body that allows him to get into the hand stand in the first place, because visual cues will not get you there on the rings.

:yes:
agapit wrote: That speed is generated in the bottom of the exercise by upper body muscles ... The hand stand is just a natural outcome of that correct effort.

:yes: Yes, but not just upper body muscles. You can also gain significant additional rotational speed by swinging your trail leg vigorously (not passively). I'm not referring to any flex in your knee - your trail leg should stay straight. I think the muscles I'm referring to are the rectus femoris, tensor facia lata, and quadriceps, but don't quote me on that.

They're basically the muscles that you'll feel tighten when you hang in an "L" on a chinup bar, highbar, or rings - muscles connecting your femur (upper leg bone) to your hips. As you begin to swing, you can force the acceleration of your swing by forcing these muscles into action - as fast as you can!

This lower-body action is of course done in unison with complementary upper body muscular actions, such as your obliques and rectus abdominis (gut muscles).

You can train yourself to swing faster by improving the strength and quickness of these muscles by simulating this trail leg action on highbar or rings. :idea:

Kirk Bryde
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby agapit » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:51 pm

KirkB wrote:
agapit wrote: What he has, is a vertical speed of the body that allows him to get into the hand stand in the first place, because visual cues will not get you there on the rings.

:yes:
agapit wrote: That speed is generated in the bottom of the exercise by upper body muscles ... The hand stand is just a natural outcome of that correct effort.

:yes: Yes, but not just upper body muscles. You can also gain significant additional rotational speed by swinging your trail leg vigorously (not passively). I'm not referring to any flex in your knee - your trail leg should stay straight. I think the muscles I'm referring to are the rectus femoris, tensor facia lata, and quadriceps, but don't quote me on that.

They're basically the muscles that you'll feel tighten when you hang in an "L" on a chinup bar, highbar, or rings - muscles connecting your femur (upper leg bone) to your hips. As you begin to swing, you can force the acceleration of your swing by forcing these muscles into action - as fast as you can!

This lower-body action is of course done in unison with complementary upper body muscular actions, such as your obliques and rectus abdominis (gut muscles).

You can train yourself to swing faster by improving the strength and quickness of these muscles by simulating this trail leg action on highbar or rings. :idea:

Kirk Bryde


Kirk, it is a common misconception that one can "swing" leg faster. The leg will "swing" I hate this term, I prefer rotate, only as far as upper body muscles can rotate the body. To test this simple mechanical truth, try to swing on the rope or a high bar without engaging your arms, pecks, lats, abs and you will see that the leg cannot "swing" by itself. The apparent "swing" is a result of the work of the muscles i have mentioned.

I do not believe rectus femoris and quadriceps could contribute anything if the leg is straight, tensor facia lata will shorten the "swing" at the hips.

so we agree right

P.S. BTW the fastest way to long "swing" on the pole is through the pull of left arm and not row, if left arm is in a right position :)
Last edited by agapit on Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:17 am

KirkB wrote: :yes: Yes, but not just upper body muscles. You can also gain significant additional rotational speed by swinging your trail leg vigorously (not passively). ... This lower-body action is of course done in unison with complementary upper body muscular actions ...

agapit wrote: ... engaging your arms, pecks, lats, abs ...

I purposely referred to "additional rotational speed" (which we agree is different than a lower-body only "swing" like on your rope example); and I purposely mentioned only "gut muscles" (abs) and muscles connecting your femur to you hips. And I have purposely said "in unison with ..." (now underlined above).

I have avoided mention of arms, pecks, and lats because I wanted to steer clear of any debate or confusion regarding rowing (a topic that's already been well documented in many other threads over the years!).

However, I am not saying that arms, pecks, and lats play no part in the TOTAL BODY SWING. Of course they do. :D

But if you want me to rank the importance of all these different muscles, I will rank them from bottom to top:

1. Muscles around your hips
2. Abs
3. Lats (because they extend down the body lower than pecks)
4. Pecks
5. Arms

The important point here is that arms are the LEAST important muscles used for a full body swing.

agapit wrote: so we agree right

Yes, we agree ... I think! :yes:
Last edited by KirkB on Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby agapit » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:23 am

KirkB wrote:
KirkB wrote: :yes: Yes, but not just upper body muscles. You can also gain significant additional rotational speed by swinging your trail leg vigorously (not passively). ... This lower-body action is of course done in unison with complementary upper body muscular actions ...

agapit wrote: ... engaging your arms, pecks, lats, abs ...

I purposely referred to "rotational speed" (which we agree is different than a lower-body only "swing" like on your rope example), and I purposely mentioned only "gut muscles" (abs) and muscles connecting your femur to you hips. And I have purposely said "in unison with ..." (now underlined above).

I have avoided mention of arms, pecks, and lats because I wanted to steer clear of any debate or confusion regarding rowing (a topic that's already been well documented in many other threads over the years!).

However, I am not saying that arms, pecks, and lats play no part in the TOTAL BODY SWING. Of course they do. :D

But if you want me to rank the importance of all these different muscles, I will rank them from bottom to top:

1. Muscles around your hips
2. Abs
3. Lats (because they extend down the body lower than pecks)
4. Pecks
5. Arms

The important point here is that arms are the LEAST important muscles used for a full body swing.

agapit wrote: so we agree right

Yes, we agree ... I think! :yes:


I don't think rectus femoris and quadriceps could contribute anything if the leg is straight, tensor facia lata will shorten the "swing" at the hips.

right?
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:02 am

I'm only saying that the knee stays straight - the hips don't. You should hinge (swing) at the hips - as per your rope example - but you should ALSO use your abs and other upper-body muscles IN UNISON to increase your rotational body speed - to extend your hips above your shoulders.

This is how I was EASILY able to invert in a continuous chain of motion, rather than tucking. Yes, I am saying that my overall body length shortens because of this technique (a negative), but I'd rather keep my body rotating and moving upwards (a positive) and keep the pole rolling forwards (another positive) than lose upwards momentum or pole momentum by not bending as much at the hips.

I think your 640 Model is closer to how Isaksson vaulted (not as much bend at the hips as myself, Dave Roberts, Bubka, and others). I found my technique MUCH easier to do. I could NOT follow Kjell Isaksson's (WR 5.59 1972) technique if my life depended on it - my core just wasn't strong enough.

There was also a Dutch vaulter - Christian Tamminga (PR 5.70 in 2001) - who had athleticism similar to Isaksson, and he could also accomplish what you're describing with very little bend at the hips.

So maybe we don't have 100% agreement after all?

Kirk Bryde
Last edited by KirkB on Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:14 am

I certainly am not suggesting that "visual Cues" are "the means" of obtaining Full inversion. Of course, all the factors of the vault effect that and it has been discussed in great length on so many threads. In fact I believe its entirely possible for a vaulter to achieve a perfect vertical position (Fully Inverted) if he closed his eyes. Not recommending that though. I do believe one can and should take advantage of using visual and feel cues as 'additional tools" (points of reference) to assist in obtaining a the perfect inverted position.
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