how to have a perfect active pole drop!?!?

[CoachEric]

It's fair to criticize a lot of pole vault coaches in the U.S. for being reckless or ignorant. Probably not these ones though.

[altius]

APOLOGIES FOR THE CAPS FOLKS - always remember that I am old and technologically challenged.

KIRK B states “And my point is - at the risk of repeating myself - that vaulters can become confused with "the numbers". Instead, they will get a more HOLISTIC idea of what a good run and pole drop should FEEL like by simply (iteratively and incrementally) trying it and modifying it so that they're not leaning back during their run, and so that they have good posture on takeoff. SO AS THEY ARE LEARNING TO DO THIS HOLISTICALLY – ARE YOU GOING TO LET THEM – ENCOURAGE THEM TO TAKE OFF??? LIKE TI SEE A TRAINING SESSION ALONG THESE LINES –BUT DON’T LET THE PARENTS ATTEND.

OF COURSE the coach should provide guidance, but if that guidance is so detailed that the vaulter gets confused (like if an inexperienced coach CLEARLY THEY SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTING –OR BE ALLOWED - TO COACH THE POLE VAULT- someone with barely any coaching or vaulting experience - tries to tell a vaulter step by step exactly where his hands should be), PERHAPS THESE COACHES SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED TO UNDERSTAND THE MECHANICS OF THE PLANT -BY NUMBERS –THEMSELVES, AND THEN THEY CAN TEACH IT PROPERLY . IT IS CERTAINLY NOT ROCKET SCIENCE – BUT PERHAPS YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IT YOURSELF!! THIS IS NORMAL WITH FOLK WHO DO THINGS INTUIVELY then your intent as a coach to "have the vaulter experience the drop of the pole effectively" will be lost. AGAIN IMNSHO THERE IS NO POLE DROP – IT IS LOWERED UNDER CONTROL. Of course gravity affects the pole beyond the fulcrum of the left hand but even then the speed of lowering is controlled by the speed of the right arm moving up.


Well old son it is clear that you are not going to change your OPINION, whatever I say – for example there was no response to the issue of developing skill in other areas –such as learning to fly a plane so I will give up on trying to influence you both. I will however suggest to those folk who are a bit confused by this to take the time to chat with a marine drill instructor about their approach to teaching recruits how to handle and use weapons. It is certainly not ‘a learn by doing experience’ but it is done precisely by numbers – as it should it be with any activity involving potential danger. And yes, it is that serious because folk who are not taught to vault properly do get injured and even killed – if that is scaremongering so be it. But many readers will remember the panic through our ranks at the prospect of high school associations eliminating the vault because it was too dangerous.

Again for those who may be unsure, I should point out that pedagogy and skill learning are my professional fields of expertise. Indeed I have written the book on that topic as well. The first edition sold 6500 copies world wide and the second edition has just been released by Human Kinetics – the same publisher which has just produced Peter McGinnis’s biomechanics book. Fairly reputable.

So for those coaches who would really like to know how you ensure youngsters master the plant – with the pole lowered under control and with “No active drop”. I suggest the following process. Note that it is a process that my young vaulters employ EVERY day and my more experienced vaulters use EVERY day in their early training period and at least once a week throughout the year.

Six 6 step walking plants in a 3/3 pattern with an emphasis on complete control of the pole. Here it should be noted we believe in the way gymnasts approach the challenge of movement perfection and we throw every macho instinct out of the window.
Often working in pairs (in what is known in the trade as reciprocal instruction) or with a senior athlete checking that the left hand especially moves on a very controlled path.

Six 6 steps trotting, six 6 steps jogging, six 6 steps running, six 6 steps sprinting to take off, six 6 steps sprinting to jump to touch a bungy with the top hand. Senior athletes periodically add six 6 steps jumping and ensuring the pole tip does not touch the ground until they land on the right foot. Try it –you will find it an interesting exercise . But if you cannot complete it successfully and again UNDER CONTROL you will never be able to execute a free take off.

In all of the work involving a take off the emphasis is also on finishing the take off with a complete extension of take off leg and ankle – to maximize energy input at take off AND set up the second phase of energy input in the swing.

Then 2x 2/2x 4 in the sand pit before six 6 step jumps into a sand pit aiming for a pre jump take off. Next to the pad six 6 steps aiming for max grip height – body long behind the pole.

Our final drill is the “Five walking step check drill”. Everything is the same except when you arrive on the fifth step – the penultimate step - YOU FREEZE ; you can THEN see whether or not the athlete has the pole PRECISELY where it should be prior to initiating the final movement of the hands into take off.

Now some may feel this information is not appropriate for the advanced section but I say again that unless this work is done most coaches will never coach an athlete technically good enough to benefit from all of the more esoteric information being presented here!

My advice is if you want to learn something, try and coach it but IF YOU REALLY WANT TO LEARN SOMETHING TRY AND TEACH IT TO ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS.

Finally I will come back to scaremongering! When parents entrust their kids to me in the knowledge that these youngsters may be going to jump 16,17,18,19 feet in the air, I think they should expect complete professionalism. That means precise instruction, not ‘give it a go” and work it out for yourself.

Incidentally if you want to see this in action come to one of the clinics I will be leading, along with coaches of the caliber of Rick Baggett, Bubba Sparks, Kevin Magula, Kris Allison, Chris Milton along with two of my disciples – good coaches both - Daniel Isaacs and Phil Ericson. You will see the process outlined above in every camp with kids being enjoined to do those drills every week at home with a stolen or preferably borrowed pole, a piece of plastic pipe or a even broomstick. So that when they arrive at the track they will have begun to master what Petrov believes is the most critical of all the elements of sound technique. Finally go to the last clips of the BTB DVD and watch IZZY doing – guess what – 6 step planting drills. You will also see the five step drill – which is where I learned it.

That’s all she wrote folks.

[KirkB]

Altius, you know how much I respect your PV coaching skills and experience, so please take this post in a light-hearted way ...

You will see the process outlined above in every camp with kids being enjoined to do those drills every week at home with a stolen or preferably borrowed pole, a piece of plastic pipe or a even broomstick.

Speaking of broomsticks, here's a simple exercise to try. It will explain my main point in this thread EXACTLY!

And your quote above is actually confirming this same point!

You're the coach. The event is called "balancing a broomstick on your finger". The competition is in one hour. Your challenge is to train your protege to balance the broomstick on his finger as long as he can. The winner will be the athlete that can balance the broomstick on his finger the longest.

How will you train him?

Will you spend the hour at a whiteboard, explaining and diagramming how you must watch when the angle of the broomstick tips over by 10⁰, and then move your finger 30 cm in the direction that the broomstick is tipping? And then when he overcompensates, and it tips 5⁰ to the left, do you explain to him how to move the broomstick 15 cm to the left? Will you also describe the required footwork, so that he has good posture during this balancing act? Erect or slightly crouched? On his toes or flat-footed? How far should the elbow be from the hip? Does he even have to learn the meaning of the word "overcompensate" to win the event?

How long will you spend describing this theory before you actually hand him the broomstick and ask him to "just try it"?

I would spend less than a minute on the theory (maybe just a 10 second demo), and then give him 59+ minutes to practice it. And to rest.

Ditto explaining the weightless pole drop!

But dropping the pole weightlessly is actually much more complex than balancing a broomstick, you say?

NO, IT'S NOT!

THAT'S MY POINT! There! I'm done!

Kirk Bryde

[altius]

Sayonara folks. A long time ago as a young naval officer, I learned that there is nothing to be gained - except a wet shirt - from pissing into the wind. So there is no point in continuing a pissing contest with you guys -because that is what it has become. There is no evidence that anything I have said has made any impact on your thinking so I will move on. If other folk want to learn anything from me they can pm me - after they have bought the book and dvd of course. Alternatively they can consider going to a new site Roman is setting up and that I may contribute to.

[KirkB]

No reason to get your knickers in a knot, Altius. I have bought your book and read most of it, and agree with most of it. Vaulters need to learn "from the book", and BTB2 is "the book".

Once they've read the book, they need to put it into context, just as they must put all posts here on PVP into context. For example, sometimes vaulters (young and old) will benefit from simple trial and error to improve their technique not just by what the text book says, but also how the vault FEELS.

I think Agapit makes this point quite well on http://www.m640.com and in his recent posts.

Kirk Bryde

[PVDaddy]

Wow guy's we are covering so many awesome points here, I don't even know were to start?

This entire subject of correct pole carry, pole drop and plant (All part of a perfect active yet "controlled" pole drop) are so vitally important (Yes were the vault is born!) yet so many coaches are not willing to spend the time to REALLY educate themselves (Yes even down to the minutia, because EVERY detail is important! Without doing that, good luck with your free-takeoff) to the level that is required to teach it correctly. Let's be real, the free take off requires a complex series of perfect movements, You must completely UNDERSTAND these movement so that you can SIMPLIFY there understanding, then it becomes very Coach-able and Achievable!

So now were on to a very very important subject of how to teach a complex series of motions in the most efficient time manner as possible (Altius, most recent focus and I entirely agree with how crucial that is! You only have vaulters for a few short seasons at best!) ! You cannot teach anything or learn anything that seems complex CORRECTLY, unless you FULLY UNDERSTAND EVERY DETAIL OF THE CORRECT MOTIONS to achieve it!

I have gotten a lot of criticism here on PVP for my insistent focus on minutia (From you as much as anyone Altius, but it seems as though this coach you are working with has you thinking more like a Gymnastic coach and that is awsome! How it should be!) as I am attempting to fully understand this great event, but, let me tell you, perfection is found in the finest details. By focusing on those details, I believe I am learning so much more! It is IMPERATIVE that the vaulter does as well and with repetitive practice (Step by step (by the numbers) from very slow to eventually full speed) will eventually be able to execute those motions perfectly and THEN on an "intuitive" level. If this is taught by trial and error the vaulter will only get frustrated and never be able to achieve it. They also will develop bad habits that will be very difficult to correct later on.

So how would I teach the perfect "controlled" pole drop and plant into free take off in the most efficient and beneficial manner as possible? I would begin by watching the PERFECT EXAMPLE on film with the Student and we would watch it over and over and in slow motion. Pop corn included! I would plant the PERFECT IMAGES into their minds from the very beginning, to give them an overview of what we are actually training to achieve! This will give the drills meaning, purpose and UNDERSTANDING. The greatest benefit of all, a MUCH reduced learning curve. Not to mention, much more ENJOYMENT! As were watching I would be constantly commenting to plant the CORRECT ideas and images into their brain such as; 'Notice how Bubka holds the pole. Notice how he carries it. Notice how he runs with it. Notice how he lets the pole drop naturally through the fulcrum of the bottom hand. Notice how the pole does not swing crazily. Notice how the pole moves forward and makes contact with his right hip, at the exact time the left leg strides forward. Notice how the left arm elbow flares froward with the right leg. Notice how BOTH these actions simulate the forward motion of a sprinters hands with the opposite leg." Then we would go out and run with the pole until we perfected this running with the pole technique. After they got that perfected, I would then concentrate on the 6 step planting motion by going back to the slow motion movie to again further plant the correct images into their minds. Then we would go out and use ALL the drills Altius mentioned from slow motion to full speed. Then back to the movie. Then back to the drills. Ad nauseum until it was good enough to safely attempt. Once they do and it starts to look decent, I would film them doing it. We would again have movie hour, this time watching them, so I could point out their flaws and they could all learn from each others mistakes. Then back to the masters movie, back to the drills, back to the real thing. This would be our continuous cycle of learning the active controlled pole drop. I would not be so concerned with the second phase of the vault until this was mastered as much as possible.



CoachEric, I went to your site and this statement impressed me the most!

CoachEric:

it became clear to me how details which seemed like minutiae translated to major movements.

So True!

CoachEric"

If the athlete tries to actively use the bottom arm to drop the pole, the vaulter is only increasing the distance to plant, and forcing deceleration.

How is that forcing deceleration? Does it slow Bubka down?

What you are seeing here is the transition of the pole's weight to the bottom arm. Bubka provides minimal resistance, thus does not affect his sprint mechanics, even though the weight of the pole pushes the bottom arm lower

This statement seems to contradict your above point? I like your explanation though, as it may offer the correct insight as to one reason he continues to lower the pole from the 6th step to the 3rd with his bottom hand? It would seem to me that the last thing you would want to do is effect your sprint mechanics especially at this stage, so it just may makes good sense to do it! I am taking the stance that I believe Bubka does it INTENTIONALLY! I believe that if he did not, it would slow him down and not only effect his sprint mechanics, but, also his plant mechanics for the following reasons. This lowering of the pole (about one fist length) occurs at the EXACT moment he makes contact with his feet to the ground. This just happens to be the same time the pole comes down (remember the pole goes up and down with his steps) and applies the most weight and pressure to the bottom hand. Also remember that the pole is now at a 45 degree angle (6th step) and with every step less and with every step more cantilevered pressure and the force of gravity. Rather than fight the weight of the ever increasing cantilevered pressure, Bubka moves WITH IT! Incrementally with each step (from the 6th to the 3rd). This helps him to continue his accelerated approach. The top hand (Right) moves up and forward with the 3rd step (Left). From my perspective the bottom hand (left), now at waist level, is in PERFECT position to extend forward to the box and moves with the penultimate step (right). He does it fluidly and seamlessly! Bubka has no trouble bringing the bottom hand up for the plant as it naturally moves up with the top hand (they are both on the same pole) during the last two steps. The top hand moves up and forward with the plant foot. I have just described what I call the "simulation of the swinging arm in the vault." The opposite hand moves forward with the opposite leg. Similar to a sprinters action (So far no one has agreed with me on this observation or concept?). Once the student understands how the hands move forward with the opposite leg like a sprinter (Perfect example of Simplification) and in what position in the last 6 steps (as the pole rotates through the fulcrum) they can begin to understand the purpose of these actions, train for them and begin to perform them naturally and Intuitively.

[PVDaddy]

I said:

From my perspective the bottom hand (left), now at waist level, is in PERFECT position to extend forward to the box and moves with the penultimate step (right)

As I have stated on a previous post that on the 3rd step Bubka's bottom hand is at its lowest point (About waist level). His top hand is also about waist level (Behind the hip), turned over, readied for the plant. If his bottom hand were to be at chest level at this point, the angle of the pole would be much to high. He would not be able to bring the pole tip down in time (at the correct angle) to smoothly transition into extending the bottom hand forward toward the box with his penultimate step. This would completely mess up the perfect dynamics of the plant and foot steps into a free take-off. Another very good reason to let the bottom hand lower from the 6th to 3rd step!

[PVDaddy]

Position of bottom hand in 3rd to last step

3rd last step.jpg (7.46 KiB) Viewed 8911 times

[CoachEric]

CoachEric"
If the athlete tries to actively use the bottom arm to drop the pole, the vaulter is only increasing the distance to plant, and forcing deceleration.

How is that forcing deceleration? Does it slow Bubka down?

Yes, he does decelerate. I can't remember where I saw the data, and I don't remember the exact numbers, but every elite vaulter decelerates in the last few steps before takeoff. Bubka decelerates less than all the rest, because his pole drop is more free than every other vaulter's. The speed data is probably out there on the Internet somewhere. The reason is because any increase in the distance the hands have to travel to plant makes it a longer motion. The feet time up with this. The ideal plant is quick and weightless, so that stride mechanics are unencumbered by the pole, and the legs are encouraged to accelerate. It would be as if you were sprinting at 90% effort and then sped up the arm swing - the legs would follow.

What you are seeing here is the transition of the pole's weight to the bottom arm. Bubka provides minimal resistance, thus does not affect his sprint mechanics, even though the weight of the pole pushes the bottom arm lower

This statement seems to contradict your above point?

What I mean here is that as the pole drops, Bubka does not resist upward to support the pole. He let's it fall. Contrast this with a vaulter who has a "static" pole carry, who carries the pole out in front of them without letting it fall. That upward resistance on the pole places an equal downward torque force on the vaulter's center of mass.

This just happens to be the same time the pole comes down (remember the pole goes up and down with his steps) and applies the most weight and pressure to the bottom hand.

I think it's important to recognize that most of the weight of the pole is still in the top hand. The vaulter is accelerating down the runway in time with the drop of the pole - running underneath it - keeping the pole tip up even without a lot of upward force applied from the bottom hand. You'll notice that faster vaulters have to begin to drop the pole tip sooner in order to time it up.

I have just described what I call the "simulation of the swinging arm in the vault."

This is a good description and it actually has implications for the plant in bottom arm action and what I would describe as "planting in time with the feet."

From my perspective the bottom hand (left), now at waist level, is in PERFECT position to extend forward to the box and moves with the penultimate step (right)

Extending the bottom hand forward is a bad cue. You want the athlete to take a quick, straight line motion in the plant. Pushing forward, then up, is a longer plant path. That means it's slower. Because the feet cannot move asynchronously from the arms, this will cause the vaulter to decelerate. The forward motion with the plant also shifts the center of mass, and it's contrary to the idea of optimizing pole rotation about its axis while planting.

I also think that this thread has gotten really convoluted with the discussion of the role of intuition. Maybe intuition is a poor word to choose. My original point, which is relevant to the drills I recommended, is that for some parts of the vault, learning by feel is the most effective way to learn some motor abilities. Pole drop is definitely one of them, because variability in run acceleration requires different athletes to drop the pole at different time. Therefore, you can't simply say, for example, "start dropping the pole 6 steps out" because that won't be correct for every athlete.

Sometimes "by the numbers" is appropriate, and sometimes "learn by feeling" is appropriate.

And to be clear, everything I do with my vaulters happens through clearly defined progression, and my vaulters never ever perform unsafe takeoffs or landings.

[CoachEric]

delete

[CoachEric]

trying to delete posts that were accidentally duplicated

[altius]

The figures show that he DOES NOT DECELERATE!