pushing back out during the swing?

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pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby straightup » Mon May 06, 2013 11:24 am

hey guys , there is one single problem with my vault, when i swing i dont push back out with my left arm. vaulters such as brad walker and lavillenie do this quite well and i have been told it helps move the pole to verical and compress it as well.
brad walker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reW-femN ... nlc5Hf_fvw
renaud : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmeWTwlu ... nlc5Hf_fvw
my jumps : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbGJ_2Tc ... pQ&index=1
i was wondering how i could work on this part of the vault? any good drills? any help is greatly appreciated. :yes:
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Mon May 06, 2013 6:21 pm

I agree that Walker and Lavillenie are both pushing with their bottom arm during their downswing. Lavillenie much sooner than Walker.

I disagree that this is good technique.

Walker stretches to a very good C position before his swing. :yes:

Lavillenie does not. :no:

Both are tuck-shooting, which is not what I personally coach, so I can't give you any advice re "pushing back out with the left arm". To me, this is a technical flaw.

Walker is closer to the Petrov Model than Lavillenie is, but neither follows it close enough to be categorized as such.

My only advice - if you're following BTB2 - is to NOT push like they do. Instead, study Bubka's vaults and try to do what he does. :idea:

straightup wrote: hey guys , there is one single problem with my vault ...

I disagree that this is your "one single problem" with your vault. :D

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Mon May 06, 2013 8:43 pm

First job is to forget the music and provide better film from a better angle! The issue of what the left arm does or doesn't do is a very complicated one - has generated thousands of words on PVP. At your level you should just concentrate on whip/swinging fast around your top hand. As long as the left hand arm are properly positioned at the instant of take off -then don't think bout what it does.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Tue May 07, 2013 11:36 am

I never post on here anymore. I will join the dark side since two posters don't believe in moving away from the bottom arm with the swing.
Lavellinie performs the bottom arm function more correctly than Walker, it should appear to be on fluid motion like Bubka's. You shouldn't be able to see two parts -a push and pull like you see in Walkers. I think he is pushing to much into the pole, that is not the goal.
Once you finish you are swinging and the bottom arm is pushing away, not necissarily into the pole. Once your trail leg and shoulders rotate to a certain point it should take you right into a pulling action. It's really a whole body action.
What's the point of this? The left arm pushing away can increase the speed of the shoulders dropping away and the hips rising above the shoulders. You also will be able to load the pole more, since you are making yourself as long as possible.

People who perform this correctly you will see them getting extended up a bending pole very fast and the hips never stop moving.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue May 07, 2013 2:53 pm

Pushing out and forward on the pole with the bottom hand From Inverted-C, when the bottom hand is over the head through Active-I is a very critical factor of greatly accelerating the downswing whip! This forward and outward extension of the bottom hand should continue to the moment the vaulter beaks at the hips at which time it should be seamlessly blended to a pulling action through the shoulder.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Wed May 08, 2013 12:08 am

KYLE ELLIS wrote: The left arm pushing away can increase the speed of the shoulders dropping away and the hips rising above the shoulders. You also will be able to load the pole more, since you are making yourself as long as possible.

KYLE ELLIS wrote: People who perform this correctly you will see them getting extended up a bending pole very fast and the hips never stop moving.

Kyle, these 2 statements are contradictory, aren't they?

If you say that Walker and Lavillenie are doing this "correctly", then how do you account for their tuck-shoot technique? While they're in their tucks, their hips have stopped moving! That pause in the tuck is because they have to wait for the pole to roll forwards!

As far as I can tell, their technique doesn't follow Agapit's Theory of Continuous Motion. Are you saying it does? :confused:

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed May 08, 2013 12:44 am

I believe this action of extending the bottom arm out and forward is very important for several reasons. It greatly increases the full coil effect of the vaulters body down the vaulters spine all the way to the whip leg toe throughout the entire downswing and part of the upswing, because it is moving away from it. This maintains the tension and the pressure on the body coil ( the body flexes and coils very similar to the pole). It also places greater pressure on the top hand which allows the swing to occur were it should on that axis of rotation. It also places a higher and deeper bend on the pole and assist in moving the pole in the vertical direction. It is very important for the vaulter to maintain continuous pressure on the poles fulcrum (top hand) along the chord of the pole throughout the entire second phase (Off-ground) of the vault. The object is to keep the pole from uncoiling as much as possible until you are negatively inverted in line with the chord of the pole.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Wed May 08, 2013 1:45 am

PVDaddy wrote: Pushing out and forward on the pole with the bottom hand ... is a very critical factor of greatly accelerating the downswing whip!

PVDaddy wrote: ... this action of extending the bottom arm out and forward is very important ... to keep the pole from uncoiling as much as possible until you are negatively inverted in line with the chord of the pole.

Yikes. :no: :no:

This is classic tuck-shoot technique - not anything that Bubka did.

Pushing out and forward with your bottom hand DECELERATES the downswing - which in turn DECELERATES the upswing - which in turn makes it difficult to fly off the top of the pole in one continuous motion (like Bubka)!

Keeping the pole from uncoiling is NOT the objective. "Being one with the pole" (letting it bend and unbend naturally as you swing) is the objective!

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed May 08, 2013 2:08 am

Wow Kirk how do you figure?! Who said anything about tucking or shooting? Furthermore you need to explain yourself how you feel extending the bottom arm is poor technique? I explain clearly why I feel it is good technique and I think the least you could do is explain why you feel it is poor technique? Especially if you're going to give two thumbs down to something that I have fully described that Bubka does? I ask anyone to take a look at Bubka first 6 m vault. It is clear that he extends the bottom hand both upward and forward through his downswing. It is clear how this upward and forward pressure applies tension Through the entire coil Of his body all the way to his swing leg toe. It is also clear that when he performs this extension it causes a high bend in then pole In places more pressure on the top hand where the swing is initiated. So Yes Kirk please do describe your points and explain why you feel this upward and outward pressure is poor technique?
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed May 08, 2013 2:30 am

Kirk you make this statement that it decelerate the down swing. But what you need to do is to describe why you feel extending the bottom arm decelerate the downswing? Also yes I do contend that maintaining top hand pressure throughout the entire second phase of the vault should be an objective. I did not state however that it should be the only objective. Are you suggesting that it is beneficial to allow the pole or in other words to assist the pole to uncoil prior to becoming inverted?
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Wed May 08, 2013 3:48 am

I think I've been very clear in all of my posts in the past 5 years why pushing or pressing with the bottom arm slows down the swing, but just for you PVDaddy, I'll repeat myself one last time.

If you look at Walker and Lavellinie's vaults carefully, you will notice that they do a "tuck-and-shoot", meaning that they curl their body up into a tucked position, and then they extend their legs and then their body upwards from that tuck. You can plainly see that their swings are slower than Bubka's.

The problem with the tuck is that it's a passive position, contrary to the Continuous Motion Theory written by Agapit (Roman B.). Every passive motion represents wasted or lost energy in the vault-pole system.

Compare their vaults to Bubka. You will not see any pause or tuck in his vaults. He swings in one continuous motion, and extends explosively because of this.

I attribute the difference to the pushing of the bottom arm by Walker and Lavellinie. I'm sure that they're quite happy with their technique, and that's cool, but I'm in the camp that says that their technique isn't optimal because of their tuck-shoot. You don't need slo-mo to see this - you can see this plain as day. They may bend a bigger pole, but they can't roll it forwards without pausing in the tuck.

On the other hand, Bubka doesn't push with his bottom arm. For any armchair quarterback that spends his time dissecting Bubka vids, it may LOOK like he's pushing with it, but in fact he's just holding onto the pole, and the pole is bending away from him such that it LOOKS like he's applying force against it. He's not. There's many other threads on PVP about this (as Altius also mentioned recently), so I'm not going to repeat what they say, other than this one special favor to my nemisis armchair quarterback.

The Search feature of PVP works wonders. If you want to search for anything I've said about pushing with the bottom arm in the past 5 years, just search for "kirk push bottom arm". You will get 147+ matches. :idea:

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Wed May 08, 2013 8:45 am

Huge bend = 100% straight bottom arm

No bend = 100% bent bottom arm



Every vaulter falls in between those two extremes. Because bottom arm straightens out doesn't mean they are applying force per say with bottom arm. The pole is just bending to max during the initiation of swing to flat back. On the other hand some are pushing very hard. Unless said vaulter and coach says what they are doing YOUR GUESSING!!!!!!!!! I'd be almost safe to guess if little bottom arm just after takeoff they can't push even if they say they are. If lots of bottom arm than yes they are pushing. To me most of the vaulters I see with little bottom arm off ground that try to push/extend just end up overly rowing hands and sitting in a chair to block out and check swing the jump.


Bubka was brought up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0P3H4iO1DU&sns=em. First jump blasted no bottom arm off ground than it straightens out. One person can go he pushed it out another can go it straightened out as the pole bent.

As far as brad goes I don't think he is the same jumper technique wise today as in 2008. I was there when he broke the AR. This is the best video I could find on the fly traveling with bad Internet and time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_XIhp4RywA&sns=em

It seems his bottom arm goes straight near left leg cast to parallel to ground. Pole is almost near full bend as well. Was he trying or did his arm just straighten. Go do a 250 pound single arm bench press. Nice part is your friend is helping you lift the weight. (Pole bending). To logically think you are actually straightening the arm out on your own is the great mystery for me. Very few of us are that strong in a mechanical sense only in the elastic world can we produce high force outputs. Elastic movements win IMO. To me his 2008 AR jump is elastic. I can't say what he was trying to do but I would not call this him pushing out with the bottom arm.




I would also like to point out a tuck can occur on accident not by design or want. If the fire pattern of movements is off and an athlete is executing a movement either too long or even .02 seconds late to trigger the next movement a fold or break in the continuous movement can occur. I have seen Renaud takeoff and swing with no break in his hips over 5.70 from 6L. From full something is not lining up the same so he gets a pause. I'd be safe to guess its not on purpose. Id guess It's something his old and new coaches are trying to adjust. I'm not sure as are none of you who are not in their camp.


I would like to make the point in regards to switching to the bottom hand will increase pressing on top hand. I disagree. When you switch from one lever point to another the lever point further away from the pivot point is turned off or used lesser. Now I'm not saying this isn't or couldn't be used effectively in someone's model. I'm saying my interpretation of basic motion is only when pressure is constant can it be progressive. If you start with pressure on top arm than switch to bottom arm the pressure felt on top arm is greatly reduced. There was an interest article a few years back I read that talked about a similar concept. The Theory of when moving to inversion to do switch to bottom hand pressure to shorten the lever point thus increasing lift potential with the shorten bent lever. However most athletes I see who switch pressure to bottom arm just tend to flag away from the pole on the turn. Not effective!

Though the way I'm reading it may be wrong. My personal stance is any unwanted pressure with bottom arm will only cause inconsistencies in the rest of the system. Continuous movements can only occur with two fixed points (top arm and box) when you add a third or fourth chaos will occur and body parts will move in different directions to compensate. Constant pressure for me can only exist if the top arm shoulder stays closed (shoulders square) at impact and beyond. This is the basic fundamental movement i look for and coach.

If shoulders open so that top arm shoulder twists back than they must close to reconnect to pole. This action IMO is sometimes mistaken for bottom arm and top arm pressure (rowing). Then cue to hit the hands may be the cue to cause the shoulder to close but the shoulder closing is the real fix not the hands. Once the shoulders close back to square the athlete should stop the cue. Sadly most who try this keep cueing too long. If shoulder doesn't close you will probably see either a bailed jump, coming up short, eating top arm side standard. A good example of the open shoulder than close is Jeremy Scott. Notice open than massive arms to close than bam just working the pole to inversion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTLggEYLVko&sns=em (video I found quick not saying his best example) (not what I personally teach)


My advice to athletes or new coaches who are designing a model to teach. Figure out what you want than find the athlete who demonstrates those movements for the vaulter to look at. To just trash vaulters cause they don't do exactly what you want doesn't help anyone but your ego. If someone is jumping higher than your athlete right or wrong they are doing something better than your athlete. Figure it out of face the fact your athlete is maxed out athletically or maxed out under your system. Progression should be seen rather its PR, average height, clearing heights on smaller poles or hip height potential. Sadly progression tends to bee seen only as height cleared.


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