pushing back out during the swing?

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KirkB
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Sun May 26, 2013 3:23 am

PVDaddy wrote: ... world class gymnast pull on the bar during the upswing (As a vaulter should, like Bubka does) because that is the best bio-mechanical time and place to apply that force in order to continue the speed of rotation as you are fighting the forces of gravity.
:yes:
But there is SOME pull with the lats during their downswing. After all, (in PV and on the highbar) the downswing is what gets you from the C to the I, so the arms change position from being stretched BEHIND your head to being perfectly in line with the rest of the body when you pass under the highbar or pass the chord on the pole. But you are right - if you pull too hard too early with the arms, then you won't be passing under the highbar in an "I" position. That will completely screw up the gymnast's upswing on a giant. Ditto on the pole.

PVDaddy wrote: Agapit, you are also way off in your view that penetration into inverted-C with no bottom arm pull, as the vaulter/pole system is loaded, is a passive phase of the vault that hurts the swing and subsequent inversion and should be done away with! All the force from the run up has got to be exchanged to the vaulter/pole system and is obviously the BEST place and time to do it. Not only is it not passive, it is in fact ACTIVE! It is active because it is virtually loading (Stretching) every muscle fiber in the human body from the top hand to the swing leg toe!
:yes:
But see my comment further down re "deep penetration".

PVDaddy wrote: Yup, active energy loading the human rubberband ( I call it the full body coil.
:yes:
Although my preference would be to call it the "full body whip". It's a whip with your trail leg, torso, and lats, all at once - immediately when you hit the C. I know I've called it something like that in the past, but not those exact three words.

I also introduced the concept of the whip of the trail leg being what initiates this full body whip (which I may have referred to in the past as full body swing). But I don't claim to be the first on PVP to ever use the word "whip". That claim goes to Advath, who used it in this 2003 post: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=602&p=5476&hilit=whip#p5476. You will notice that he suggests that first the shoulders, then the hips, then the trail leg foot accomplishes this "whip", whereas I assert that it is the trail leg that initiates this whip action, and the full body whip is the rippling UP of this action from the trail leg to the hips, to the lats/shoulders, and finally to the arms.

I first described this method in 2008, here: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15521&hilit=whip+kirk&start=12. At that time, I referred to this whip as a "snap/whip/pop", as I was still figuring out how to describe what I FELT.

PVDaddy, you will enjoy that thread, because that's where I also first described how "you need to shoot backwards a bit to keep from hitting the bar on the way up" (negative inversion!).

PVDaddy wrote: Kirk, you are beginning to look at the downswing whip as a full body pull (I call it the body coil) and you are correct in the sense that the body is bent backward just as if you were to bend your index finger backward and "snap" it on the table. ... This pull however is not a pull of the arms it is a pull of the entire body (The full body coil).
:yes:
I seem to recall a coach's audio of that - maybe Dave Butler in a Reno lecture? - and I fully agree. That's the same type of elasticity that I felt during my best vaults, and it's EXACTLY what I've been advocating since I first felt that sensation in 1971.

PVDaddy wrote: Like Petrov has stated the deep penetration of the body ensures the forward propulsion of the legs and hips up the pole through the active extension of the bottom arm. I believe the reason he called that an "active" extension is because it not only keeps the vaulter as far away from the pole as possible, which not only places the COG low on the vaulters body which produces a long deep powerful pendulum swing, but, also maintains the pressure on the body coil (The full body pull) throughout the entire downswing!
:no:
You had me, up until here.

First, I no longer think that "deep penetration" is necessary. I now realize that my best vaults were when I INSTANTLY popped out of the C - instead of "pausing" until I penetrated "deeply". I now advocate a quick stretch-in/pop-out type of C. If it's too long of a stretch, then it is passive. It MUST be quick! But don't think that I'm saying not to FULLY stretch. You can still FULLY stretch without it taking up a lot of valuable time. Stretch-in/pop-out!

You also know what my opinion is re an "active extension of the bottom arm", and "keeping the vaulter away from the pole", so I won't discuss that further. Let's just agree to disagree on that point.

PVDaddy wrote:The time to pull with the arms and at the same time break at the hips is during the "Upswing" as the body comes OUT of the coil and at the same time must fight the force of gravity.

Yes, but you're actually pulling with your arms (the "lat pull") during the "full body whip" the instant you hit the C. I personally led this whip action with my trail leg, and that still "feels right" to me (altho I don't vault any more), but I would concede that the "full body whip" is probably the most optimal technique.

The only question is whether you cue on your trail leg or your lats. I think cueing on the trail leg is best, especially knowing that impressionable vaulters that cue on the lat pull will over-do it, and they may also misinterpret what a lat pull is. There is no question whatsoever what a trail leg hinge/whip is!

Kirk
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Sun May 26, 2013 3:54 am

It is simply amazing that PVDaddy keeps on with this stuff -now he is telling Roman - who knows Petrov and Bubka personally from their days in the old USSR - was a vaulter in the Soviet system - and whose ideas are widely accepted by many readers of pvp - that he really doesn't know what he is talking about.

Now either PVdaddy is who he claims to be - a novice pole vault coach - or he is really someone with vast experience in the vault, has coached to Olympic level and is a personal friend of both Vitali and Sergei, and even more importantly has spent time discussing these issues with them. If it is the latter he is probably qualified to continue to promote his ideas and his criticisms of others BUT if it is the former he should do as I continually suggest -go away and learn about the vault by actually applying what he does know -however little that might be - because that really is how he will come to understand this fascinating event.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby agapit » Sun May 26, 2013 10:28 am

PVDaddy wrote:...All the force from the run up has got to be exchanged to the vaulter/pole system and is obviously the BEST place and time to do it. Not only is it not passive, it is in fact ACTIVE! It is active because it is virtually loading (Stretching) every muscle fiber in the human body from the top hand to the swing leg toe! Yup, active energy loading the human rubberband ( I call it the full body coil. I suppose that's not scientific either right?)! The SCIENTIFIC term for the fastest, available human motion possible-the stretch-reflex! Guess what happens if you attempt to pull during this penetration? The energy from the run-up (the most amount of energy ever generated) is dissipated (Lost) between the vaulter and the pole and the stretch-reflex gets destroyed...


Your ignorance of basic principles of physics, mechanics and biomechanics is staggering! Is for the "Experts" like you I stopped writing on pvp. Your luck of the basic knowledge and respect is so vast that any intelligent discussion with you is impossible. So, I am not going to touch this s..t again beyond this post.

1. You in your foolishness may think that an athlete has to make an appointment to transfer the energy to the pole. Let me make your life easier, the transfer happens just by virtue of an athlete holding the pole and no special care is needed here.
2. The stretching of every muscle fiber including the forward chest penetration should and does occur as a result of completion of the leg jump cycle on the ground (same as in long jump), so the jump sets this. The flatter jump "soft jump" will produce more C-position and waste more time, but C-position is not an energy generating action the jump off the ground is.
3. The energy of the run up does not get lost period! As it is a kinetic energy that equals body mass (which is constant) and the speed of the body. Some of the energy of the run up is automatically stored in the pole bend simply by virtue of an athlete holding the pole with the top hand. So relax, if you hold the pole it will load. You do not need to worry about it or train it.

I recommend that you sign up at http://www.m640.com and learn a few things, although inconsiderate discussions are not tolerated at m640.com, but you could always come and vent on pvp.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Sun May 26, 2013 1:46 pm

agapit wrote: 1. You ... may think that an athlete has to make an appointment to transfer the energy to the pole. ... the transfer happens just by virtue of an athlete holding the pole and no special care is needed here.

There is loss of energy if all of your muscles aren't TIGHT or TAUT on takeoff, going into the C, and popping out of the C. This is true no matter how pronounced your C is. There is always a C - the difference between the Petrov Model and the 640 Model and the Bryde Model (if you want to call it that - but I simply think of it a style of the Petrov Model) is simply a question of how much.

It's true that the transfer of energy happens on takeoff - and to start with it's 100% (0% energy loss).

However, if you're under and you get clothes-lined, or if you simply relax all your muscles (instead of keeping them tight), then there can be significant energy loss. If your plant is not stretched as high as possible, then there is energy loss in the shoulder. If you tuck your trail leg before you swing it, there is energy loss in your trail leg. If you drop the lead knee (by trying to resist but failing to resist), there is energy loss in your lead leg. If you just let the entire body absorb the impact of the pole on takeoff like a sack of potatoes (no one would ever do this on purpose, but if you're not strong enough to keep all your muscles taut, then it does happen - to varying degrees), there is energy loss!

When your muscles are taut, and you're stretched like a rubber band, AND if your muscles are "well-toned", then there's minimal energy loss. If you resist your stretch by bottom arm pressure before popping out of the C, there is energy loss. Why and how? The bottom arm isn't strong enough to be 100% effective. If it is only 90% effective, then (perhaps) 50% of that energy might go into the potential energy of the pole, and the other 40% slows down the swing, leaving (perhaps) 10% that is dissipated - lost within the body as heat (muscle burn) and the inevitable collapsing of the arm. The solution is NOT to stiff arm it so that there's 0% lost by the arm collapsing - that will lead to a higher % of the total energy slowing down the swing, which is NOT what you want (unless you're following the Okkert Brits Model).

agapit wrote: 2. The stretching of every muscle fiber including the forward chest penetration should and does occur as a result of completion of the leg jump cycle on the ground (same as in long jump), so the jump sets this. The flatter jump "soft jump" will produce more C-position and waste more time, but C-position is not an energy generating action the jump off the ground is.
:yes:
So far, so good. I'm not sure what you mean by a "flatter soft jump", but the proper jump - as you say - is an emphatic, vigorous JUMP off the ground - like a world class long jump or high jump (as opposed to a lackadaisical jump that might raise your CoG by just a foot if you're lucky). This does set MOST of the C that's needed, but it will make a significant difference whether you "immediately pull" or if you "stretch then pull" with your top arm.

There's no sense in debating which is better here. The 640 Model says pull immediately, whereas I say stretch then pull. Some PV gurus (like Dave Butler) say stretch then pull, and others agree with you, Agapit. BTW Altius, Butler has talked personally with Petrov, so if that's your criteria for qualifying for challenging Agapit's 640 Model or not, then you're out of gas. We will never agree on exactly what's best, so let's just identify this as a style (or model) difference, and move on. Viva la difference!

agapit wrote: 3. The energy of the run up does not get lost period! As it is a kinetic energy that equals body mass (which is constant) and the speed of the body.

In theory, yes, but see my first comment above re how inefficiencies in the bottom half of the vault can and do lose energy.

agapit wrote: Some of the energy of the run up is automatically stored in the pole bend simply by virtue of an athlete holding the pole with the top hand. So relax, if you hold the pole it will load. You do not need to worry about it or train it.
:yes:

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Sun May 26, 2013 4:36 pm

agapit wrote: 3. The energy of the run up does not get lost period! As it is a kinetic energy that equals body mass (which is constant) and the speed of the body.

I forgot to mention that there is also some energy lost on takeoff. No matter how efficient your takeoff is, the conversion of horizontal momentum to vertical momentum (by the jumping action) is not 100% efficient. If you jump more like a long jumper (more horizontal and less vertical) then there will be less energy lost. If you jump more like a high jumper (more vertical), then there will MORE energy lost.

Where does this energy go? It goes into the ground, and it's lost in the muscles which cannot possibly be 100% taut. It's impossible to be 100% taut in the legs, knees, and ankles. Unless you're muscles are all bionic, in which case you might bounce up on takeoff higher than an 8-foot high jumper.

This does NOT mean that you should jump more like a long jumper. The ideal angle is apparently somewhere around 18⁰ - based on a study by Lanthorne. The more you can jump UP (without losing too much energy), the faster you raise your CoG - which is one of the ways to clear a higher bar.

How much is "too much"? I dunno. :confused:

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon May 27, 2013 8:53 pm

Agapit:
Your ignorance of basic principles of physics, mechanics and biomechanics is staggering!


Although I do not have a physics degree and do not consider myself to be on the same level as James Clerk (perhaps you do, but I doubt it, just based on so many of your post and the one you made here, that I can barely manage to get through (truthfully I usually cant), as they are so non-sensical), I do have a bachelor's of science and have had (and passed just fine) college PHYSICS 1, 2 and 3, so I'm pretty sure I have a understanding of the "basic principles of physics. Also, 30 years of coaching wrestling (4 national Champions and I lost count of State Champions? ) has giving me very good incite to bio mechanics, thank-you very much!

Agapit:
1. You in your foolishness may think that an athlete has to make an appointment to transfer the energy to the pole. Let me make your life easier, the transfer happens just by virtue of an athlete holding the pole and no special care is needed here.
:no:

Based on your comments, your ignorance could not be more apparent on this subject. You used the word appointment, not me, but, you are incorrect right out of the gates as the transfer of energy ie. Force = Mass x Acceleration (since you are such a Physics whiz) from the run-up, must occur precisely at the correct place and correct time! So ya, appointment if you like to view it that way! Also, this transfer does not just happen by virtue of the althlete holding the pole. What a ridiculous statement! The athlete must hold the pole in a very precise manner and position his body in a very precise manner for this to occur as efficiently as possible. If you think All vaulters achieve the same efficiency of the trasfer of force, then your more lost then I thought! What do you think your friend, Vitaly Petrov's Reno 2005 speach was all about? No special care is needed here you say? :dazed: :

Agapit:
2. The stretching of every muscle fiber including the forward chest penetration should and does occur as a result of completion of the leg jump cycle on the ground (same as in long jump), so the jump sets this. The flatter jump "soft jump" will produce more C-position and waste more time, but C-position is not an energy generating action the jump off the ground is.

:no:

Wrong, the amount and proper stretching of the muscle fibers into a correct C-position, does not occur just as a result of the jump cycle, as you call it. That is only one factor, of many! Of course the angle of the jump is one factor, but, so is the acceleration going into that jump, how the jump is performed and the position of the vaulters body and its parts IE. chest, head, arms legs, feet, after the take-off is performed. The amount and shape of the C-position will be affected by all those factors, just like the amount and correct transfer of energy, coming out of the full body coil (C-position) will. If the vaulter tries to pull while going into this position (vaulter/pole loading) it will not only effect his C-position and pole flex and position, but. reduce the efficiency and proper transfer of energy going into the vaulters body and the pole and therefore less energy coming out of the coil. I never said that the C-position was "energy generating" but I will say that achieving the proper C-position is imperative, for the full and effective transfer of that energy to take place.

Agapit:
3. The energy of the run up does not get lost period! As it is a kinetic energy that equals body mass (which is constant) and the speed of the body. Some of the energy of the run up is automatically stored in the pole bend simply by virtue of an athlete holding the pole with the top hand. So relax, if you hold the pole it will load. You do not need to worry about it or train it.


Your very first sentence shows your lack of the basic understanding of physics, the world, and Mechanical systems. Its true energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form (Newton's first law of thermodynamics) but a 100% transfer of energy to a directed source within a mechanical system (pole vaulting) is impossible, as some of that energy will be lost in the form of heat, vibration, noise etc. so some will be dissipated and misdirected away from its intended direction, especially if it is a bad system IE. M-640, as you now choose to call it. If so where's your perpetual machine, Agapit? Don't feel bad no one has invented one! :idea: Your second sentence shows your lack of understanding physics even more! Kinetic energy does NOT equal Mass X Velocity, Physics expert! Kinetic energy equals 1/2 Mass x Velocity squared. :o If you are referring to force, the correct equation was given above and below, It involves acceleration, not velocity. As far as training goes, I will as a coach, be concerned with transferring the Mass X Acceleration (Force) generated during the run up as efficiently and properly as possible into the vaulter/pole system and that involves much more than just holding the pole. The best, current system (method) for doing that was already demonstrated by your friend , Bubka. I am suggesting you take a refresher course in physics. if you ever had one.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby Branko720 » Mon May 27, 2013 11:55 pm

Ok, this will be my last post on this topic. If everyone recalls my original post I wrote this acronym, KISS. I really feel like a lot of people on this site have been over-complicating things. Note that even though I may not agree with Maury (AVC) but he at least gave his onion in the shortest and most understandable way. I feel like many others try to show off with how smart they are. Who cares. I'll ask one more time and if anyone can give me a simple answer I'll actually read it. Why not pull immediately? What's the draw back? Also why stretch? Will the amount of time spent to get into a good stretch position accelerate your swing enough to make up for that time and then some?

I know my answer, do you?

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Tue May 28, 2013 1:40 am

My answers in a nutshell are:

If you pull immediately, you won't get enough of a stretch to the C.

You stretch to "cock your gun" - by getting your muscles stretched in such a way that your "full body whip" will be as vigorous (and thus as effective) as possible. Then you "pull the trigger" by starting your "full body whip".

Yes, the time to stretch is worth it - as long as you don't pause in the C - at all! Stretch in and then IMMEDIATELY pull the trigger - pop out and WHIP!

You cannot "accelerate your swing" as well without a "good" stretch.

The only question remaining - in my mind at least - is how much stretch is a "good" stretch?

One other "pro" on the stretch side is that by getting a "good" stretch, the pole rolls forwards more before you slow it down by your swing. This is a "con" on the "pull immediately" side. In fact, I really don't understand what the proponents of "pull immediately" have to say about this, other than perhaps lower your grip to make up for this lost penetration? :confused:

I know some may say "penetration is a passive phase that shouldn't exist", but I don't think that's good enough of an explanation. PROVE IT! As far as I can tell, Bubka penetrates, and Bubka stretches to a C - BEFORE he "pulls"!

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Tue May 28, 2013 5:28 am

Time to move on folks. The objective of PV has always been to move our understanding of this event forward. All that has happened here is that the water has increasingly been muddied -sadly by fol who re not actually coaching at anything like the level that would give them an understanding of this event.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue May 28, 2013 11:15 am

Kirk, I have really enjoyed your post as of late regarding "the full body whip". I can so relate to what you are saying. I call penetration, going into C, a full body coil. The whip has not yet taken place. My question for you (I do not have the personal experience with this) is, does not the full body whip happen automatically and occur naturally after the shoulder girdles come to a stop (Arrest), as you load the full body coil and the pole during penetration? Do you even have to think about it, or time it? I have never advocated a pause (As you no longer do) nor do I see a pause in any of Bubka's jumps.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Tue May 28, 2013 10:07 pm

A video of me from last year specifically working on the swing and movement of the bottom arm and swing leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08EIdnRiDHQ
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Wed May 29, 2013 1:18 am

All goo stuff I am sure but I think you would be better off ensuring that your plant is not late, the pole not loaded before you leave the ground and the left arm positioned so that it can be 'disengaged' -IE not driving the bend into the pole a bit more - before anything else happens. Just my the cents worth. :D
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