PVDaddy wrote: ... world class gymnast pull on the bar during the upswing (As a vaulter should, like Bubka does) because that is the best bio-mechanical time and place to apply that force in order to continue the speed of rotation as you are fighting the forces of gravity.
But there is SOME pull with the lats during their downswing. After all, (in PV and on the highbar) the downswing is what gets you from the C to the I, so the arms change position from being stretched BEHIND your head to being perfectly in line with the rest of the body when you pass under the highbar or pass the chord on the pole. But you are right - if you pull too hard too early with the arms, then you won't be passing under the highbar in an "I" position. That will completely screw up the gymnast's upswing on a giant. Ditto on the pole.
PVDaddy wrote: Agapit, you are also way off in your view that penetration into inverted-C with no bottom arm pull, as the vaulter/pole system is loaded, is a passive phase of the vault that hurts the swing and subsequent inversion and should be done away with! All the force from the run up has got to be exchanged to the vaulter/pole system and is obviously the BEST place and time to do it. Not only is it not passive, it is in fact ACTIVE! It is active because it is virtually loading (Stretching) every muscle fiber in the human body from the top hand to the swing leg toe!
But see my comment further down re "deep penetration".
PVDaddy wrote: Yup, active energy loading the human rubberband ( I call it the full body coil.
Although my preference would be to call it the "full body whip". It's a whip with your trail leg, torso, and lats, all at once - immediately when you hit the C. I know I've called it something like that in the past, but not those exact three words.
I also introduced the concept of the whip of the trail leg being what initiates this full body whip (which I may have referred to in the past as full body swing). But I don't claim to be the first on PVP to ever use the word "whip". That claim goes to Advath, who used it in this 2003 post: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=602&p=5476&hilit=whip#p5476. You will notice that he suggests that first the shoulders, then the hips, then the trail leg foot accomplishes this "whip", whereas I assert that it is the trail leg that initiates this whip action, and the full body whip is the rippling UP of this action from the trail leg to the hips, to the lats/shoulders, and finally to the arms.
I first described this method in 2008, here: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15521&hilit=whip+kirk&start=12. At that time, I referred to this whip as a "snap/whip/pop", as I was still figuring out how to describe what I FELT.
PVDaddy, you will enjoy that thread, because that's where I also first described how "you need to shoot backwards a bit to keep from hitting the bar on the way up" (negative inversion!).
PVDaddy wrote: Kirk, you are beginning to look at the downswing whip as a full body pull (I call it the body coil) and you are correct in the sense that the body is bent backward just as if you were to bend your index finger backward and "snap" it on the table. ... This pull however is not a pull of the arms it is a pull of the entire body (The full body coil).
I seem to recall a coach's audio of that - maybe Dave Butler in a Reno lecture? - and I fully agree. That's the same type of elasticity that I felt during my best vaults, and it's EXACTLY what I've been advocating since I first felt that sensation in 1971.
PVDaddy wrote: Like Petrov has stated the deep penetration of the body ensures the forward propulsion of the legs and hips up the pole through the active extension of the bottom arm. I believe the reason he called that an "active" extension is because it not only keeps the vaulter as far away from the pole as possible, which not only places the COG low on the vaulters body which produces a long deep powerful pendulum swing, but, also maintains the pressure on the body coil (The full body pull) throughout the entire downswing!
You had me, up until here.
First, I no longer think that "deep penetration" is necessary. I now realize that my best vaults were when I INSTANTLY popped out of the C - instead of "pausing" until I penetrated "deeply". I now advocate a quick stretch-in/pop-out type of C. If it's too long of a stretch, then it is passive. It MUST be quick! But don't think that I'm saying not to FULLY stretch. You can still FULLY stretch without it taking up a lot of valuable time. Stretch-in/pop-out!
You also know what my opinion is re an "active extension of the bottom arm", and "keeping the vaulter away from the pole", so I won't discuss that further. Let's just agree to disagree on that point.
PVDaddy wrote:The time to pull with the arms and at the same time break at the hips is during the "Upswing" as the body comes OUT of the coil and at the same time must fight the force of gravity.
Yes, but you're actually pulling with your arms (the "lat pull") during the "full body whip" the instant you hit the C. I personally led this whip action with my trail leg, and that still "feels right" to me (altho I don't vault any more), but I would concede that the "full body whip" is probably the most optimal technique.
The only question is whether you cue on your trail leg or your lats. I think cueing on the trail leg is best, especially knowing that impressionable vaulters that cue on the lat pull will over-do it, and they may also misinterpret what a lat pull is. There is no question whatsoever what a trail leg hinge/whip is!