Lavillenie vs Bubka

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Wan
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby Wan » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:26 am

In "L'Express" (french newspaper) 07/31/2010 :
Just born, Lavillenie follows in his bassinet, his father Gilles, amateur pole vaulter, on the jumping pit in the small stage of Cognac.
Since four years of age, he tinkers his own poles "with a piece of wood, an iron rod, a wooden rod, a broomstick ended with a plug in order to jump a wall, a bush, a portico or a table. "
At seven, he signed his license to Cognac.
Lavillenie is an acrobat born. An acrobat in vaulting, but in riding too.
"Between ten and fifteen years old, I have not touched a single pole." he says.
"As my father then managed a riding school, I started trick riding."
Up to 20 years old, he rides bareback , standing, "en cosaque", sitting backwards, doing a headstand , "controlling momentum and speed, all ended by a stunt, like with pole vault."
At 20, he really resumed pole vault without being a sparkling junior, just able to perform 4.70 m, while the junior world title is decided at 5.50 m at that moment.
In the summer of 2007, the spring-loaded man dropped his three horses the day he jumped 5.45 m, a step towards the high level he wished "not to be jeopardized with injury caused by aerobatics."


This doesn't explain the technical changes of 2008 but just the fact he seriously dedicated himself to pole vault at 20, therefore with lower performances than others of the same age.

palm1234
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby palm1234 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:37 am

Kirkb wrote

>>> I don't know if we can draw any conclusions based on him clearing 6.01 in 2009 and 6.08 in 2014 - it's not THAT much different.

Well I would tend to disagree. In 2009, Renaud jumped 5,96 alone in a local competiton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9I2erh3y5Y

and the week after, 6,01 in a European team competition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEvgeGWDj0M
, but his average jumps in 2009 were between 5,80 and 5,90. In the Berlin WC, he cleared 5,80.

In 2013/2014, it seems 5,90 is the bare minimum for him if he is healthy in a competition.

Kirkb wrote
>>>His breakthru years were 2008-2009. What changed in those 2 years?
In june 2008 he moved from his home city and his small club (Cognac) to Clermont-Ferrand with good facilities for training and another (better ?) trainer, Damien Inocencio
Previously his trainers were his father (Gilles Lavillenie 2003-2007) and Georges Martin (09/2007-05/2008)
from
http://teamperche63.over-blog.com/pages ... 34675.html

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:38 pm

Wan wrote:This doesn't explain the technical changes of 2008 but just the fact he seriously dedicated himself to pole vault at 20, therefore with lower performances than others of the same age.


I like this... I've often heard about the huge disadvantage we are at in the US because most of our athletes don't start the sport until age 14-15+. It sounds to be like starting any younger is not necessarily an advantage.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby david bussabarger » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:36 pm

In response to Kirk's post:
To start off I completely disagree that Renaud is doing something different this year vs the past. Keep in mind that he had a 6.07m vault last year that was ruled a miss on a technicality. He also had a fantastic season last year clearing 5.92 or better 9 times and 5.80 or better 16 times. Few vaulters including Bukbka have ever had a better season height wise. I also have video of his 5.96m vault in Monaco which was a sure 20'er.
It should also be kept in mind that a vaulter can improve his/her performance by simply getting better at executing the same approach to his/her technique ( without making any changes in execution ). Bubka improved from 5.70m to 6.15 doing this. This is what Renaud is doing. Getting better at what he has always done technically.
The reason I gave up debating last year is because at a certain point the debate becomes futile. It was obvious that those who I was debating with ( including you ) had their minds made up and nothing I was going to say was going to change this. Now that Renaud is seriously threating 20' and Bubka's record may be in jeopordy, perhaps some people on this site might be wiiling to look at things a little differently. At least I sure hope so. After all. if you what to try to approach technique scientifically you must always be willing to question "current wisdom". In science nothing is written in stone.
As to the execution of the take off any OBJECTIVE observer with a good eye and a good understanding of technique can see that Renaund's take off technique is very different from Bubka's. Objective is a big word here. Biased observers see what they want to see. You have had this problem in the past ( along with Launder and other advocates of the B/P model ). I remember you claiming at one point that Renaud didn't tuck!
As to the reasons behind his take off technique, I don't know. It may be deliberate or it may be natural and instinctive. But from my point of view this doen't matter much. The fact that he has his own unique take off style is what matters.
My point of view about the free-take is covered in my previous post. You are free to disagree.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby cdmilton » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:54 pm

david bussabarger wrote: To start off I completely disagree that Renaud is doing something different this year vs the past.

We should keep in mind that Renaud switched coaches at the end of 2012. You would have to assume he did that for a change in philosophy.
http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtop ... 31&t=24905

david bussabarger wrote:Keep in mind that he had a 6.07m vault last year that was ruled a miss on a technicality. He also had a fantastic season last year clearing 5.92 or better 9 times and 5.80 or better 16 times. Few vaulters including Bubka have ever had a better season height wise. I also have video of his 5.96m vault in Monaco which was a sure 20'er.


Jeff Hartwig had a historic year in 1999. 19 times over 5.80 en route to an american record.
http://www.jeffhartwig.com/1999.htm

david bussabarger wrote: It should also be kept in mind that a vaulter can improve his/her performance by simply getting better at executing the same approach to his/her technique ( without making any changes in execution ). Bubka improved from 5.70m to 6.15 doing this. This is what Renaud is doing. Getting better at what he has always done technically.

This is true. Speed, strength, timing of your plant, etc can make you go higher.
Hartwig said the only thing he changed prior to from 1998 to 1999 was working on foot strength which allowed him to improve his speed.
Chris Milton

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby grandevaulter » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:26 pm

Find a video of the "Cavalia" (French Canadians) and you'll see why he transitioned from acrobatics on horses (If it is true) into the pole vault. The French do this as well as anyone.

Wan
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby Wan » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:35 am

grandevaulter wrote:(...) you'll see why he transitioned from acrobatics on horses (If it is true) into the pole vault.

You seem to be sceptical about...

Image
Renaud Lavillenie - Riding show - Cognac - August 13th, 2007
(-> http://www.sudouest.fr/2012/08/13/la-passion-du-fils-793523-882.php)

grandevaulter
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby grandevaulter » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:13 am

Wan wrote:You seem to be sceptical about...
I think it is wise to be skeptical of most information we read on the internet. (See many posts on this forum for example) The media typically distorts the facts as well. I didn't see a translator on the news article. Ich lese Deutche oder Englisch. Paquena Espanol.

The type of horse acrobatics that the French do requires the human run as fast as the horse. They perform gymnastics on a 1200 lb. animal running and jumping over it at 10.1

Wan
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby Wan » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:07 am

grandevaulter wrote:I didn't see a translator on the news article. Ich lese Deutche oder Englisch. Paquena Espanol.


I tried to translate it for you (not evident, this article is full of idioms...)

"A passionate."

This word comes back like a boomerang in the mouth of anyone who knows Renaud. Whether equestrian acrobat 15 years old, or the star of jumpers at 25, the total investment is without flaw. A real tough guy that has risen, last Friday, in the firmament of the Olympics. "When he has something in mind, he never gives up, confesses his coach Damien Inocencio. It's true that he's a passionate, and it's all very well his main strength ." A significant advantage, slipped into the sleeve of his jacket, when the eldest of the siblings Lavillenie dragged his gaiters on bridleways held by the father.

"He's flat out in everything he does, shows Gilles, his father. He learned to ride alone, just looking at me. Acrobatics took him between 15 and 17 years, when I went to manage a horse riding center in Landes. He liked it because he's a daredevil, and you have to be so to be a vaulter. It's this dimension, this adrenaline he likes."

More than a character trait, it's a true genetic predisposition (his father and brother are also pole vaulters) detected at an early age. "You have to be crazy to install a vault pit at home (as Renaud did in his childhood , Ed), amuses grandmother Annie. But Lavillenies are slightly cracked." Always in search of sensations, this troublemaker of vault pits will stop at nothing, especially when it comes to live his passion. Yet this immoderate love dedicated to his discipline has its flip side, and its sacrifices, made inevitable by the untapped potential of the athlete. "Renaud left Cognac in 2008, remembers Gilles Lavillenie. He first went to Bordeaux, then to Clermont-Ferrand." A blessing in disguise, as the paterfamilias. "He had to have this break, for him and for me. It was mandatory."

A painful breakup.

Divorce with Cognac, on political and financial imbroglio between family background and the Charente's athletic club, has undoubtedly left its mark. A way for Renaud to take off, and reach his full potential in his new Auvergne region. "Now he feels almost more as he was born in Clermont-Ferrand than in region Charentes, he's been very well received there," even reported his grandmother.

A choice dictated by love dedicated to his bride-to-be, but also his passion for the pole. "First and foremost, Renaud wanted to join his girlfriend, remembers his coach, but he also wanted to work with me. It was in June 2008. He wanted to join our club because it has very good facilities. For this many reasons he decided to settle here." Winning bet for Lavillenie, who definitely takes off under the tutelage of Damien Inocencio. "But he's not necessarily someone easygoing every day admits the person. Anyway, this is the lot of champions. Not that he's someone who is hard to train, but Renaud has a very strong character." The same character of hardened steel, which makes him a gold filled researcher. Enough to encourage vocations. "Renaud is someone who had the possibilities. He was very hardworking, strong-willed, remembers Patrick Bergeaud, Director of Cognac Athletic Club. With work, it may be possible to a lot of people to succeed at the top level. He can be a source of inspiration for many young people." Valentin, who has followed the footsteps of his idol bro, is the first and foremost concerned.

Ice and rummy with grandpa

"And yes, a Lavillenie may hide another," smiled Jean, his grandfather, too eager to regain his Olympic champion grand-son, with the simplicity that characterizes him. "When he visits us, he like to eat an ice, and to settled for a rummy card game. Renaud is very family-minded. He calls us "the old", but it's not at all derogatory in his mouth. He's on TV as he's in life, a guy who does not get big-headed. This is what makes him popular." That is indeed the essential thing, because Olympic gold doesn't bring everything.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby david bussabarger » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:28 pm

In response to PV Junkie,
Yes several other vaulters besides Bubka have had a season as good or nearly as good as Renaud's was last year (Tarasov, Lukyanenko, Mack, Stevenson and Hartwig to name a few ). But the point I was trying to make is that Renaud's marks this year certainly didn't come out of the blue. He has been gradually improving over time.
Yes Renaud has a new coach. Although I don't know what his input is. It may be limited to changes in training or pshycological input, etc.., while not making any significant changes in Renaud's technique. I know if I were coaching him I would be very hesitant too make any technical changes. I would just tell him your technique is great and you can break the world record just by getting better at what you are doing now. In otherwords be supportive and build his confidence.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby altius » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:04 pm

"Or Perhaps Altius and Agapit can debate about why they are such big fans of Pulling early throughout the downswing?"

Trying reading our posts - instead of blathering on non stop about your own beautiful theories. If you did, and they are in the public domain on PVP, you will find precisely why I decided to alter my position from the accepted Petrov position that I detailed in BTB. Not going to put it up again because you wouldn't read it this time either -people who are always talking never have time to listen. Suffice to say what I put forward then bridges the gap between theory and practice with young athletes -but you wouldn't know much about that would you old son?
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:40 pm

Altius:
you will find precisely why I decided to alter my position from the accepted Petrov position


Yup you altered your position alright, or your position was altered when you decided it? This bad information (Saying that the re-extension after going elastic is in fact a pull when in fact it is a push) from Mentors like you and Agapit probable has confused and harmed to many already! Why not just keep it simple and say you were badly mistaken? It could happen to anyone, even an old aficionado like you!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.


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