Lavillenie vs Bubka

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david bussabarger
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby david bussabarger » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:54 pm

To Coach Eric:
To be fair I went into more details about the differnces in the takeoff between B and L than the takeoff angle ( which I didn't actually mention ).
There are many more important and obvious differences in technique between these 2 vaulters: rate of acceleration on the runway, handspread distance, action and position of the lead arm during the takeoff, the duration of the swing, rock-back style ( straight leg sweep vs tucking ), and specfic vertical extention technique. It would be too exhausting to go into specific anaysis on all these factors.
I will soon be posting a new topic: The development of pole movement and bend in fg. vaulting that goes into more detail about the differences in L and B's takeoff technique.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby Wan » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:24 pm

Reading you and to sum up... B dealed (very well) with the pole to express his athletics capabilities and L uses (rather well) the pole to emphasize his own... two different ways to approach the same goal... so two different styles.
Am I wrong ?

david bussabarger
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby david bussabarger » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:34 pm

To PV Dweeb:
Pretty good concise summary of my thinking. Although I would add that what Bubka does so well technically is his abilty to generate lift by his actions on the pole during the vault. This is similar to what the old rigid vaulters did using some what different techniques. Lavillenie exploits the advantages of the bending pole better.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby CoachEric » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:48 am

I think the most important difference involves the execution of the takeoff. The B/P model, as exemplified by S. Bubka, empasizes developing upward movement in the arms and legs as the vaulter takes off and delaying the bending of the pole until the vaulter is airbourne. Lavillenie, on the other hand, utilizes a forward/upward spring off action and drives more directly into the pole during the take off.

How was this not a mention of takeoff angle?

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that you have posited, from what I understand, that Lavillenie's technique might be superior to the Petrov model based on his recent performance. I infer that you are challenging Petrovites to open their minds to alternative models.

I can accept that premise, nothing wrong with the idea, but why should I? How is Lavillenie's technique superior? The difference in "style" are pretty plainly obvious, but do you think Lavillenie's movements are intentional or the result of years of vaulting a certain way? (I can guess your answer) Are you advocating a tuck? Are you suggesting that Lavillenie's pole carry and plant are better? Why? What is it about Petrov that you believe is potentially inferior?

I'm open to the debate, I just think you need to provide a meaningful thesis about the technique if you are going to suggest that coaches and athletes change their philosophies on the sport.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:23 pm

Renaud Lavillenie just set the WR today in Donetsk !!!

Same venue as Bubka's WR 21 years ago !!! One cm higher - 5.16i !!! Bubka was there, and congratulated him !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlVcXB6le4U&feature=youtu.be

Incredible !!!

Now we have a new reference vault from Lavillenie to compare to Bubka's old WR 5.15i.

I'm looking forward to an analysis of their technical differences! I actually saw quite a few differences myself.

I recently questioned whether some of Lavillenie's technical improvements over the past several years have moved him closer to the Petrov Method, and I still haven't heard much about what others think about this. (David, by your silence on this topic, I assume that your opinion is that there is no movement in this technical direction whatsoever?)

Is it just my imagination, or is it true? In particular, I have questioned whether he's moved his takeoff point out (more than just in proportion to raising his grip), and I have questioned whether he's moving more towards a free takeoff (less and less prebend before takeoff).

But looking at his jump today, he is NOT following the pure Petrov Model. There are some aspectis of Petrov that he follows (high pole carry ...), but not enough to call it pure Petrov. There is still a visible, distinctive pause in his swing (as he tucks), and there is still a distinct extension out of this tuck/pause. That is not the Petrov Model. The Petrov Model is to swing fluently, in a single motion without any discernible tuck or pause.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

david bussabarger
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby david bussabarger » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:31 pm

Well, I don't see how it can be disputed now that Lav.'s technique is superior to Bubka's. I hope people will start looking at the tecnique of the vault with a more open mind now.
In response to Kirk, it is my view that technically Lav. represents a whole new paradigm in the vault relative to Bubka ( of course you can always find some similarites with Bubka if you look hard enough ). I have written a new post called The development of Pole Bend and Movement in the Fg. Vault that deals more specfically with the differences in L and B's takeoff action. Unfortunately I have tryed to post it several times without success. I will keep trying and will get it posted as soon as possible.
To coach Eric, this new post will specifically address differences in L and B's takeoff angle.

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KirkB
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:42 pm

david bussabarger wrote: Well, I don't see how it can be disputed now that Lav.'s technique is superior to Bubka's.

This is too funny! :D

When Bubka was the WR holder (up until today), your argument was something like (paraphrasing):

Just because Bubka is the WR holder doesn't mean that his technique is superior. There are other factors. He was taller and faster ...

But I do agree with this:
david bussabarger wrote: I hope people will start looking at the tecnique of the vault with a more open mind now.
:yes:

david bussabarger wrote: In response to Kirk, it is my view that technically Lav. represents a whole new paradigm in the vault relative to Bubka ( of course you can always find some similarites with Bubka if you look hard enough ).

He doesn't look THAT much different than other tuck/shooters in the 6.00m club, but maybe you see something that I don't (and I haven't looked as closely as you have yet).

david bussabarger wrote: I have written a new post ...
:yes: I'm looking forward to reading your analysis!

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:25 pm

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH! SO AWESOME!!!!!!!!

I'm very happy about this, but honestly, I'm not surprised. I truly believe we will see 6.14 or better by a few over the next 5 years.

SO COOL! :)
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

david bussabarger
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby david bussabarger » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:16 pm

Kirk,
I'm not saying that Lav.'s technique is ideal , which is what you and the other B/P
advocates have been claiming and I have been arguing against. I'm just saying given all the facts you have to conclude that Lav.s technique is superior to Bubka's IF YOU ARE OJECTIVE. Futher,I do not believe in one ideal style or technical model. As I've said before if you systematically analyize large numbers of elite male vaultes you can find many universal points of technique. These universals can be used to form a technical foundation for all vaulters. The other variable aspects of technique such as takeoff point, handspread, swing duration, rock-back style and so on should be developed around the individual vaulter's natural tendencies.
Secondly, many other vaulters today display technque which is similar in many respects to Lav.s, but he is certainly the best amoung them technically. However I should point out that unlike the B/P fanatics I certainly don't think eveybody should now go around copying Lav.s form. Every vaulter should develop thier own technical style according to their own tendencies.
One piece of final advice: I strongly believe that your preconcieved beliefs have a big impact on how you percieve reality. So again biased people is what they want to.

david bussabarger
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby david bussabarger » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:02 pm

More thoughts: It might suprise some people to know that I'm a big fan of Bjorn Otto. Tecnically he is what I would call a B/P model variant. That is he displays many of the characteristics of the B/P model but also has some important technical differences ( most noteably he takes off under ). Otto has ineffect, personalized the B/P model with great success. I have also read that he does not have great speed for a 6m vaulter, so he must be doing some good things technically to vault 6.01 at age 3. One important physical trait he shares with Bubka that has alot to do with his success is that he is very explosive.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:12 am

david bussabarger wrote: One piece of final advice: I strongly believe that your preconcieved beliefs have a big impact on how you percieve reality. So again biased people is what they want to.

I think you should keep your strong beliefs and your advice to me to yourself. It's not helpful to publicize your personal opinions in this way. You just assume that I'm biased because you have painted all proponents of the Petrov Model with the same brush. Calling us all biased is your defense mechanism to rationalize things that don't fit into your view of the world.

I am biased towards scientifically sound principles of vaulting, and I have verified almost all of what I've learned by my own personal experience. Some of it has been the school of hard knocks, where I do NOT advocate certain technical aspects that did NOT work well for me. To me, this is not "biased" in the same way that youl think of me as being "biased". I am not swayed by people's opinions - I am only swayed by scientific or factual evidence. You may be surprised to know that my type of personal scientific expirimenting actually has a scientific name. It's called "constructivism", which is a fancy word that means learning through doing. My scientific mind was sharp back when I vaulted, and it remains sharp. You even conceded that to me in a communication that we had last year.

Ironically enough, I consider you much more biased than myself, primarily because you have certain theories that you seem unwilling to change in the face of hard scientific evidence. For example, you have made no comment whatsoever on PVStudent's extremely thorough discussion of the free takeoff. Eighteen superlative posts from PVStudent on that topic, but not one comment from you.

I'll tell you what ... let's forget about quibbling over who's biased and who's not, because that's really not all that constructive. Instead, let's have an UNBIASED discussion of the pros and cons of Bubka's technique vs Lavillenie's. That's what's important - not infighting amongst pundits.

You may be pleasantly surprised if I agree with some of your analysis in this new thread that you've promised us. And because you think I'm biased towards the Petrov Model, my agreement to anything non-Petrov-like may look to you like I'm a turn-coat or a fair-weather-fan towards the Petrov Model. That's not it at all. I am constantly looking for new scientific evidence that may alter AND IMPROVE my view of optimal PV technique, and if you can explain to me why Lavillenie's style or technique is superior, then I'm all ears.

NONE of us has a perfect picture of what a perfect vault should look like, so we should ALL take our blinders off and keep an open mind on new ideas. That has certainly been how I have learned PV technique over the years, and I intend to continue doing so. Everyone should look in the mirror every once in awhile, myself included. :)

In your last post, it sounds like you are applauding Bjorn Otto's technique, even though he is "under" on takeoff. PVStudent has thoroughly explained why being under is bad technique (i.e. why not being under is good technique). If you're going to defend Otto's technique for being under (or Lavillenie's for that matter - especially if you think he's intentionally taking off under), then you will have to explain why.

Just saying that because the majority of 5.80+ vaulters take off under therefore it's good technique is not scientific evidence that it's better to take off under than out.

You might as well say that most drivers speed on the freeways, so therefore that must be the best way to drive! :confused:

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby altius » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:42 am

Had to happen - great jumping -but let the dust settle before you start claiming his technique is superior to SB. Just a thought - and spare one also for Petrov. He was always encouraging Sergey to go higher when he had the chance but as Sergei said the money was too tempting. He had to look after his family's future and so did not take his chances when he had them. Always a sore point with Petrov who was only ever interested in Olympic/ world golds and the world record.

I know Bubbys last WC jump will be discounted, but I will believe Lavelenie has something better to offer from a technical perspective when I see him clear a 6.00m bar by 40 cm!

Perhaps when I have sorted out the medical side of things here i will take a look at his jump - clearly he is doing some things very well - the question is - to what extent does his model reflect the critical elements of the PB model - there are clearly some obvious similarities, such as pole carry, run and plant. Also it should not be forgotten that the French under Maurice Houvion took up Petrov's ideas. Take a look at Galfione in 96 for example. But let the battle rage. In the end the critical question is -what are you going to teach YOUR athletes??? I am still teaching mine to try to jump like Bubka! ;) :D .
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden


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