Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

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PVDaddy
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Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:47 pm

This is my last post. This has needed to be said for a long time! I have always found it to be very peculiar that A Russian (Agapit), an Australian (Altius) who are considered mentors by some have promoted Pulling immediately into the swing and they could not possibly have thought of a better way to destroy proper technique. I feel this is nothing more than propaganda to a largely U.S. Read audience here on PVP. To make matters worse a Canadian (Kirk) comes along and promotes it as well! (If you do not believe this check their past post) What do we have here a Trifecta of foreign propaganda. Now that the truth is being declared and FINALLY recognized by most that you should never pull during the downswing by really good coaches Like Butler,Werner, and Clymer and has been largely promoted here by myself. I expect them to run to the hills with their tails between their legs or try to back peddle as fast as they can! Thank goodness the truth has come out and is being made known!
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Re: Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:52 pm

Rainbowgirl, I realize you can sensor and edit the truth by removing this post or me. I just want the truth to be Finally recognizes on this MOST critical point here on PVP!
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Re: Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

Unread postby VTechVaulter » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:50 pm

I always thought the canadians were our allies?

there must be a brains to this operation. Theres no way the russians and australians are capable of this without a ring leader. I suspect it may be one of our own. At this point i think its best to trust no one, and fear everyone. It was silly to call them out openly, we should have asked becca to tap their private messages so we could have figured out who they were working for. OH NO.. MAYBE THE LEADER IS BECCA HERSELF, and PVP was just a giant plot to keep everyone misinformed. i could hit myself for not realizing this sooner.
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Re: Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:59 pm

PVDaddy wrote: This is my last post.
:yes:

PVDaddy wrote: ... To make matters worse a Canadian (Kirk) comes along and promotes it as well! (If you do not believe this check their past post) ...

Don't misquote me. I am NOT a proponent of pulling immediately upon takeoff (before swinging). My tagline is:

Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

This tagline hasn't changed much in the past several years.

"Pull." is not in my tagline or in my recommended technique. There is no "Pull". There is only a "Stretch" and a "Whip". The Whip is the swinging action, but it happens after the Stretch. You cannot Pull then Stretch, but you can Stretch then Pull (and I recommend THAT, insofar as a pull is a type of whip or swing). The pull that Agapit recommends is a pull BEFORE any stretch, whip, or swing.

I have tried to keep an open mind on this issue (that has been recommended primarily by Agapit), and I have asked him on PVP to clarify this technique. He has not explained it in a way that I can understand it, so I still don't understand it. Nor have I have ever personally experienced this type of a pull.

There are a few vaulters on PVP that have actually experienced this technique (and believe in it), and I respect their opinions. But I have NEVER, EVER, EVER recommended this technique. How could I if I don't understand it, and I have never experienced it?

Oh, I guess having experienced something is NOT a pre-requisite for recommending a certain PV technique by SOME pundits - but it is for me!

Kirk
Last edited by KirkB on Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

Unread postby jam354 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:01 pm

PVDaddy wrote:This is my last post. This has needed to be said for a long time! I have always found it to be very peculiar that A Russian (Agapit), an Australian (Altius) who are considered mentors by some have promoted Pulling immediately into the swing and they could not possibly have thought of a better way to destroy proper technique. I feel this is nothing more than propaganda to a largely U.S. Read audience here on PVP. To make matters worse a Canadian (Kirk) comes along and promotes it as well! (If you do not believe this check their past post) What do we have here a Trifecta of foreign propaganda. Now that the truth is being declared and FINALLY recognized by most that you should never pull during the downswing by really good coaches Like Butler,Werner, and Clymer and has been largely promoted here by myself. I expect them to run to the hills with their tails between their legs or try to back peddle as fast as they can! Thank goodness the truth has come out and is being made known!


I don't normally get involved with these types of things, but this has to stop. This site has been invaluable to countless coaches/vaulters who needed help and got it from world class coaches/vaulters. Regardless of if anyone makes mistakes, it is way better than the alternative. When was competing, I had a 15 second clip of Billy Olsen's Indoor Record as my only resource to learn. Can we please get back to what this site is great at, helping coaches and vaulters get better at what they do and not a battle of egos.

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Re: Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

Unread postby jam354 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:03 pm

Kirk, my last post was not intended to go after yours.

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Re: Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:05 pm

jam354 wrote:Kirk, my last post was not intended to go after yours.

No problem. I didn't expect a reply so quickly, as I made a couple minor edits for readability after you posted.

I normally don't reply to PVDaddy's posts any more, but when he misquotes me, I feel compelled to defend myself and clarify my position re the technical model that I recommend. I respect the opinions of Altius and Agapit (even when I disagree with them), as they have gone thru the process of coaching many, many vaulters, and have written many, many articles and books of great value to all aspiring pole vaulters and coaches. However, almost all of what PVDaddy posts is not to be trusted, because they're just his own theories based on MISINTERPRETATIONS of other peoples' posts, and MISINTERPRETATIONS of Bubka vids. So reader beware! :dazed:

Perhaps my "reader beware" advice is unnecessary, since we've now read PVDaddy's LAST post! :yes:

Kirk
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Re: Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

Unread postby CoachEric » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:20 pm

International conspiracy in the pole vault community huh?....this is all I can think of.... http://youtu.be/X6WHBO_Qc-Q

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Re: Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:21 pm

Kirk heres just a few:

There's a lot of confusion regarding the word "pull" on this Advanced Technique forum (not just in this thread). I think what Agapit meant when he used the word "pull" in his Manifesto is not the normal English usage of the word.

I think he meant a "lateral pull", where the direction of the pull is similar to a gymnast inverting straight-bodied from a hang on the rings. The use of the lats (latissimus dorsi muscles) is the only part of this gymnastic move I'm referring to - not the straight-body part.

This movement is still not exactly the "pull" that he's talking about, because in a lat pulldown, you bend both elbows substantially. But if you do the lat pulldown with both elbows straight, that's much closer to it.


Of course, both the rings and the weights excercises don't take into account the gripping of a pole where the top arm is straight and the bottom arm is bent. Maybe if you can imagine taking a 3-foot piece of broken pole, attaching it to the weight over your head (while you're prone on a bench), holding the pole with your normal grips, then doing a lat pulldown - whilst emphasizing a straight top arm and bent bottom arm - that would simulate it much closer. In fact, don't just imagine this - try it!


It's a combination of getting the body used to the movement, and at the same time putting the movement into your "muscle memory". Then, when you take off on a real jump and are about to swing, the movement will happen "automagically". You'll just do it without thinking, due to all your conditioning.



You've got it a bit backwards. The lat pull is at the start of the swing. It's done in conjunction with the long trail leg swing.


In my experience, I didn't really think about pulling (lat pulling). I thought about swinging, and the lat pull happens at the same time. Just like on a high bar. I led with my swing, and the pull followed. Or you could say that they happen simultaneously. But you definitely don't initiate the swing with the lat pull. You just accelerate it by pulling - which is what adds energy to the system.



IMHO, if you do it right, you really don't have to think about pulling with the bottom hand at all - it should just come naturally from all your high bar work.


You quote AVC coach;
AVC Coach wrote: In reference to the bottom arm pushing at take-off, I think the important thing to remember when teaching young vaulters is this.......DO NOT PULL!!! I teach my kids to get the bottom arm moving up, not out, at take-off

Kirk: AVC Coach, do you mean "DO NOT PUSH!!!?"


AVC Coach: No, I wrote what I meant. I think that I have a pretty sound understanding of what should happen at take-off and pulling is not an ingredient in that recipe in my opinion.

Sigh.... :confused: Kirk, You refuse to get it (AVC Coach is correct) or except it, and I believe it may have to do with the fact you were not taught it or demonstrated it in your own outdated technique.

What Petrov, Butler, Werner, Clymer, and I have been trying to say and What Bubka, Walker and Lavillenie demonstrate in their vaults is that they are NOT performing a Lat Pull (As you call it) in their downswing after and coming out of elastic Penetration. In fact they are performing just the opposite! They are experiencing a" Lat Stretching" as they Re-Extend the Plant to extend the long lever of the body and to lower their COG. Just as the Gymnast Pushes away from the High bar during the downswing in the Giant. It is the upward push upward that add energy to the downswing and is critical for the downswing Tap! :idea:

The other points that you are failing to recognize and in fact disagree with that are all critical to break the world record are:

1) The benefit of generating vertical energy coming out of the chair position from the top of the swing though the forceful straightening out of the spine and the extension of the legs and hips upward. I call that the Tap at the top of the swing.

2) The benefit of extending that swing all the way so the the hip makes contact close to the top arm elbow in a beyond vertical position.

3) The benefit of a very strong downward Push of the bottom hand toward the pit for additional vertical energy.

4) The benefit of a very strong top hand push as you leave the pole.

You have made it clear you do not believe in these additional opportunies to add vertical energy and None of these are included in your Signature as well? :no:
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Re: Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:28 am

Somehow, I didn't think we'd heard the last of PVDaddy. You can't even believe him when he says "This is my last post."

So many quotes of me saying SOMETHING, but not one where I recommend the "pull" then swing (without any stretch). Not one. :confused:

I won't even bother to count how many times I was misquoted here. Just about every sentence where PVDaddy tries to interpret the intent behind my quotes is way off the mark. Not even close. :no:

It's almost as if he did a Search for "kirk pull", and then pasted anything that he found - regardless of the context of the posts.

I don't think I need to say much more here, so I won't.

KirkB wrote: ... almost all of what PVDaddy posts is not to be trusted, because they're just his own theories based on MISINTERPRETATIONS of other peoples' posts ... :dazed:

Enough said.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Poor Mentors of the past on the PUll

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:39 am

Oh FFS...


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