Pole Vault Manifesto

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby agapit » Sun May 01, 2011 9:36 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote:I can swing up on a pole, highbar, rope without pulling down with my left arm. Petrov doesn't speak of pulling. "It is worth mentioning here that the arrest of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through active unbending of the left arm, whereas the acceleration of the vaulter’s hips drive upwards was built up by the turn of the shoulders back and down."

This video I posted nothing in it represents a pull-down with the left arm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I49VgJG7q_Y
Even on the rope drill you can see that he doesn't pull with his lift until it is time to extend up the pole. There is a swing, which I believe should be done with long levers and a straight body as possible to load the pole and get the hips on-top of a bent pole. Then there is an extension- pull with the left, unbend the pole etc.

I hope there is something I am missing because I agree with everything in the manifesto except the left arm pull.

Lastly if you were to do a straight body swing up on a high bar from a static postion, your arms have to do almost the opposite of pull down in order to get your hips up. If you pull down you end up doing a chin up ;)


Kyle, like the evil Trainman in Matrix, I assembled this "post" and pretty much in control of the words I say and the claims I make. If you are a scientist and can dispute my claims you are welcome to try. But now I have to slap you, ever so slightly :) sorry. You just don't come at the master with an attitude my friend. If you have a question, word it in a nice, respectful manner then you will not be embarrassed :)

First of all by "arresting" shoulders you do not mean putting them in jail, right? I think you mean pushing the pole with the left arm, which in fact shortens the rotation of the body/pendulum and yes moves (not drives, what is “drives”?) hips upward faster into the "pocket" that you rocket from :) Now all that driving of the hips is fine, but this action does not create any new energy at all, but wastes a lot of time out of 1.4 second that you have to do some good work. The video you presented demonstrates that "pocket" from which you hope to rocket. And my friend, in scientific terms there is no such thing as "hips drive upwards was built up by the turn of the shoulders back and down". Shoulders are not a car. They don't turn. And even if they were a car the wheels would turn them. So what wheels, so to speak, are turning shoulders in your world and where? What kind of mambo jumbo language is that?

I have never said that Petrov advocated left arm pull. I do. In my original Manifesto, I mentioned that they, with Bubka, pioneered a unique method of vaulting without, in some cases, realizing what they have actually done and you must remember that they did not have luxury of years of observation. They came right from the old world of pole pushing, getting into pockets and pole riding, so they did not have the precedent or a lingo to be able to describe all that came out of their new method. Petrov, although mentioned what they were trying to do, never had a description of pre-jump (free takeoff) Alan Launder described it first in 1987. I was doing free takeoff myself without having a proper understanding and description, but I found Alan's observation and definition in some ways revolutionary and extremely helpful in pinpointing that phase of the jump. I am just following a natural historic progression my friend and take what they have started a little further.

You are correct, you can swing on the rope or a bar without a pull, but the best you can do, as your video demonstrates, is to get inverted with your hands by your hips. If you do this, so called “rowing” action on the pole, it will get you exactly where the athlete in your video is the POCKET - DEAD END.

I myself and some of the athletes get into a HAND STAND on the bar from the same swing as shown in your video. And I am not talking about “giants” on the bar either, not with that little swing. Have you ever tried this at home? On the rope some of the athletes were able to pull through with hand at the face level not at the hip level. Your video demonstrates a classic dead end of the rowing method. After you get into this position you will ride the unbending pole, by "shooting out of the pocket" right?

Well that’s old news my friend and I have heard it in 1979 first.

Now, say 12 Hail Marys and go watch video of Cornelius Warmerdam on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOWAamINDXY

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Mon May 02, 2011 11:49 am

agapit wrote:
Kyle, like the evil Trainman in Matrix, I assembled this "post" and pretty much in control of the words I say and the claims I make. If you are a scientist and can dispute my claims you are welcome to try. But now I have to slap you, ever so slightly :) sorry. You just don't come at the master with an attitude my friend. If you have a question, word it in a nice, respectful manner then you will not be embarrassed :)


Sorry if it sounded like I had an attitude, I didn't, just been waiting for you to expand on the left arm pull for several years now, guess I got excited.

agapit wrote:
First of all by "arresting" shoulders you do not mean putting them in jail, right? I think you mean pushing the pole with the left arm, which in fact shortens the rotation of the body/pendulum and yes moves (not drives, what is “drives”?) hips upward faster into the "pocket" that you rocket from :) Now all that driving of the hips is fine, but this action does not create any new energy at all, but wastes a lot of time out of 1.4 second that you have to do some good work. The video you presented demonstrates that "pocket" from which you hope to rocket. And my friend, in scientific terms there is no such thing as "hips drive upwards was built up by the turn of the shoulders back and down". Shoulders are not a car. They don't turn. And even if they were a car the wheels would turn them. So what wheels, so to speak, are turning shoulders in your world and where? What kind of mambo jumbo language is that?


The quote you are ripping isn't mine, its Petrov from his IAAF article. Hip drive to me is simular to doing a candle stick, the hips are more maintaining a position (slight posterior tilt) so that the body can be swung as straight as possible. I believe you can speed up the shoulder drop by pushing down the pole, not by pushing agaisnt it!!!
agapit wrote:
I have never said that Petrov advocated left arm pull. I do. In my original Manifesto, I mentioned that they, with Bubka, pioneered a unique method of vaulting without, in some cases, realizing what they have actually done and you must remember that they did not have luxury of years of observation. They came right from the old world of pole pushing, getting into pockets and pole riding, so they did not have the precedent or a lingo to be able to describe all that came out of their new method. Petrov, although mentioned what they were trying to do, never had a description of pre-jump (free takeoff) Alan Launder described it first in 1987. I was doing free takeoff myself without having a proper understanding and description, but I found Alan's observation and definition in some ways revolutionary and extremely helpful in pinpointing that phase of the jump. I am just following a natural historic progression my friend and take what they have started a little further.


I was under the impression from your manifesto that Bubka pulled with his left arm? I remember someone even posting pictures and you pointed out when the left hand pull occured, and that the increased pole bend made it an illusion, making it appear that his left arm was extending rather than pulling. Also since he was coached by Petrov I would assume that he was doing things simular to the video I showed and description from the Petrov article that your ripped.

agapit wrote:
You are correct, you can swing on the rope or a bar without a pull, but the best you can do, as your video demonstrates, is to get inverted with your hands by your hips. If you do this, so called “rowing” action on the pole, it will get you exactly where the athlete in your video is the POCKET - DEAD END.


You pull from here? I don't see the dead end.

agapit wrote:
I myself and some of the athletes get into a HAND STAND on the bar from the same swing as shown in your video. And I am not talking about “giants” on the bar either, not with that little swing. Have you ever tried this at home? On the rope some of the athletes were able to pull through with hand at the face level not at the hip level. Your video demonstrates a classic dead end of the rowing method. After you get into this position you will ride the unbending pole, by "shooting out of the pocket" right?


I have never tried what you speak of. And no, you then pull your body up the pole mainly through the effort of the bottom arm.

Well that’s old news my friend and I have heard it in 1979 first.

Now, say 12 Hail Marys and go watch video of Cornelius Warmerdam on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOWAamINDXY[/quote]

Thank you for answering the questions I have already asked. Also no disrespect, like I said I loved your manifest but the only part I couldn't get was the left arm pull. I am just trying to understand exactly what the left arm pull is and possibly what it would look like.
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby agapit » Mon May 02, 2011 5:16 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote:The quote you are ripping isn't mine, its Petrov from his IAAF article. Hip drive to me is simular to doing a candle stick, the hips are more maintaining a position (slight posterior tilt) so that the body can be swung as straight as possible. I believe you can speed up the shoulder drop by pushing down the pole, not by pushing agaisnt it!!!
agapit wrote:
I have never said that Petrov advocated left arm pull. I do. In my original Manifesto, I mentioned that they, with Bubka, pioneered a unique method of vaulting without, in some cases, realizing what they have actually done and you must remember that they did not have luxury of years of observation. They came right from the old world of pole pushing, getting into pockets and pole riding, so they did not have the precedent or a lingo to be able to describe all that came out of their new method. Petrov, although mentioned what they were trying to do, never had a description of pre-jump (free takeoff) Alan Launder described it first in 1987. I was doing free takeoff myself without having a proper understanding and description, but I found Alan's observation and definition in some ways revolutionary and extremely helpful in pinpointing that phase of the jump. I am just following a natural historic progression my friend and take what they have started a little further.


I was under the impression from your manifesto that Bubka pulled with his left arm? I remember someone even posting pictures and you pointed out when the left hand pull occured, and that the increased pole bend made it an illusion, making it appear that his left arm was extending rather than pulling. Also since he was coached by Petrov I would assume that he was doing things simular to the video I showed and description from the Petrov article that your ripped.

agapit wrote:
You are correct, you can swing on the rope or a bar without a pull, but the best you can do, as your video demonstrates, is to get inverted with your hands by your hips. If you do this, so called “rowing” action on the pole, it will get you exactly where the athlete in your video is the POCKET - DEAD END.


You pull from here? I don't see the dead end.

agapit wrote:
I myself and some of the athletes get into a HAND STAND on the bar from the same swing as shown in your video. And I am not talking about “giants” on the bar either, not with that little swing. Have you ever tried this at home? On the rope some of the athletes were able to pull through with hand at the face level not at the hip level. Your video demonstrates a classic dead end of the rowing method. After you get into this position you will ride the unbending pole, by "shooting out of the pocket" right?


I have never tried what you speak of. And no, you then pull your body up the pole mainly through the effort of the bottom arm.

Well that’s old news my friend and I have heard it in 1979 first.

Now, say 12 Hail Marys and go watch video of Cornelius Warmerdam on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOWAamINDXY




I am not going to discuss second hand translations of Petrov, I know he does not speak good enough English to write this. You have brought this quote, so it means something to you.

To my knowledge Petrov's inspiration of a new model came from realization that vault with the fiberglass pole is more like with rigid pole - jump free and up without pushing the pole and work nonstop on the fiberglass pole as on the rigid pole, these being the two main components of the new model. It is understandable that coming from current, at the time, terminology it was not obvious that one can takeoff before pole bends and pull with left arm as Cornelius Warmerdam and other rigid pole jumpers (vaulters) did. And yes Bubka did almost what Warmerdam did except some minor visual aberrations due to the big bend of his pole, whether Petrov told him to do it in exactly the same words as I suggest or not. If you tell someone to do the same thing as you would do on the rigid pole, what would they do, stick the left arm and arrest their shoulders? Besides there is always a chance that Bubka just intuitively discovered this dynamic second part (work on the pole) without anyone telling him anything at all, and they just could not describe it in a clear concise language, as they did not with the free takeoff.

So if you want to use as a shield a second hand, inaccurate, obscure translation and the name Petrov you can go ahead, but I would recommend to you to take a few days and think of this:

In the video of Warmerdam, he obviously does pull with his left arm in order to accelerate his swing and raise his center of gravity, as one would on the rope, if the goal is to raise the center of gravity as high = as fast as possible, or on the bar, if one is trying to do a hand stand, so the meditation topic for you would be – to imagine that Warmerdam’s pole increases the bend incrementally, one inch at the time, with every attempt, at what degree of the pole bend Warmerdam would have to do something other then what he is doing and why?

Now remember those guys were able to push (difference between grip and the bar) 42”+ on the rigid pole. I can bet that you of the fiberglass pole cannot do it. Why is that?

As far as your highbar exercise there is no way you can get into a handstand after finishing where you finish in that video, no matter how much you pull after you get in that shoulder down position (pocket). The only way you can get into the hand stand is if you accelerate your center of gravity vertically through the pull and the rowing will not do it, my friend.
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby altius » Tue May 03, 2011 12:57 am

In the BTB 1 and 2 I attempted to translate the Petrov/Bubka model into words, pictures and a model that folk, who might never have the chance to meet either of those outstanding individuals, could understand and use. As Roman points out Vitali never mentioned a pull with the left arm -but then he never talked specifically about a 'pre jump' either - so I never made an issue of the former in the books, even though Roman had been pestering me about it for a long time. In the main the notion is completely counter intuitive -and it was for me until I eventually had an epiphany and realised that if you accept the fact that 'modern vaulting is stiff pole vaulting with a flexible pole', and that the key elements of modern technique are therefore to be found in stiff pole technique - then you are forced to accept Roman's concept of a left arm pull - because clearly that is what the stiff pole vaulters did to accelerate the swing -a critical element of their technique.

It is not only counter intuitive it is counter to what your eyes are seeing -that is the hand moving away from the shoulder - surely it cannot be pulling! But Roman can show you that it can be pulling even while it is moving away. You will find a detailed statement of my conversion earlier in this series of posts I believe.

However before you get too carried away just remember another point I made -after you leave the ground much of what happens is intuitive behaviour - intuition being "the distilled essence of past experience" IMHO. So where does that intuition develop - with thousands of stiff pole jumps from short approach - take offs and especially bar clearances.

Unfortunately I have just learned from my publishers that I have to do a major rewrite of my games book - and fast - so although i will follow the ongoing discussion with interest i will not have the time to contribute again. Good luck!
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby agapit » Tue May 03, 2011 8:40 am

altius wrote:In the BTB 1 and 2 I attempted to translate the Petrov/Bubka model into words, pictures and a model that folk, who might never have the chance to meet either of those outstanding individuals, could understand and use. As Roman points out Vitali never mentioned a pull with the left arm -but then he never talked specifically about a 'pre jump' either - so I never made an issue of the former in the books, even though Roman had been pestering me about it for a long time. In the main the notion is completely counter intuitive -and it was for me until I eventually had an epiphany and realised that if you accept the fact that 'modern vaulting is stiff pole vaulting with a flexible pole', and that the key elements of modern technique are therefore to be found in stiff pole technique - then you are forced to accept Roman's concept of a left arm pull - because clearly that is what the stiff pole vaulters did to accelerate the swing -a critical element of their technique.

It is not only counter intuitive it is counter to what your eyes are seeing -that is the hand moving away from the shoulder - surely it cannot be pulling! But Roman can show you that it can be pulling even while it is moving away. You will find a detailed statement of my conversion earlier in this series of posts I believe.

However before you get too carried away just remember another point I made -after you leave the ground much of what happens is intuitive behaviour - intuition being "the distilled essence of past experience" IMHO. So where does that intuition develop - with thousands of stiff pole jumps from short approach - take offs and especially bar clearances.

Unfortunately I have just learned from my publishers that I have to do a major rewrite of my games book - and fast - so although i will follow the ongoing discussion with interest i will not have the time to contribute again. Good luck!


Alan, as always, yours is an outstanding and concise analysis!!! I know persistence will eventually win the day. And yes you are right, it takes experience and so called “training implementation technology” to make this happen. Humans realized that it is possible to fly to the moon, in principle, but it took 60 years to develop the actually technology to do so. I had this realization in 1985 and it really took me over 10 years, including working with you in Adelaide in early 90s, to develop training methods to teach this to people.
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby dougb » Tue May 03, 2011 9:08 pm

A look at the data

Master

You stated, “However, if you really analyze the "matrix" without looking at the images, but the data only, you will see beyond the bend deception:)” so I did.

I measured the total time of the vault from toe off the ground to max height for Warmerdam, Gutowski, Bubka, Hooker, and Renaud. Then I measured shat percentage of that time each took to reach the flat back position ( pelvis and shoulder level with the ground ).

The results

Warmerdam 35.4 %
Gutowski 33.3 %
Bubka 34.0 %
Hooker 33.3 %
Renaud 29.4 %

I chose these data points because it is your contention that “stiff pole” vaulters pulled with there left {lower} arm to accelerate the swing. At least that is my understanding of what you said

The above data does not prove that they did not pull with the lower arm. Only, if they did. it did not improve their swing relative to todays vaulters.

When you look at the video of Warmerdam to observe the left arm
Remember that because his hands were together on the pole and the left arm was by necessity bent at take off and through the swing.

All of this is interesting but the proof will be an elite vaulter who pulls with his left arm immediately after take off. You say that you are coaching vaulters in this technique. Have you any video?

It’s good to get the cobwebs cleared out.

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby tsorenson » Wed May 04, 2011 1:23 am

http://youtu.be/rIZWb2Ou71Y

"immediately after takeoff" means after finishing the takeoff, right? After pushing the pole up and making space? It seems like Walker does pull with the bottom arm at this point in the vault

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby tsorenson » Wed May 04, 2011 1:30 am


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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby dougb » Wed May 04, 2011 3:32 am

I would define a pull as one that lasted through the swing to inversion. walkers left arm flex seems to be a reaction to the take off much like Hookers.
If you look at the left arm when the swing has begun ( when the trail leg is lined up with the right arm ) it is straight. This has been explained as the
bend of the pole pulling the left arm straight again. This is a myth. It is far easier to keep the left arm bent than push yourself against the swing.
I quote Steve Hooker.
'If you watch my jump I don't use a lot of left arm at the point of take off. Then I try and hit the pole agressively with the left as I start to swing my trail leg and get inverted"

Bottom line is I don't consider Walkers vault an example of a left arm pull.

I also believe that there is more than ONE WAY to vault.

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby altius » Wed May 04, 2011 5:02 am

Sorry to rude DB but if you believe that there is more than one way to vault, is it reasonable to expect that this philosophy is being translated into producing vaulters in your green and pleasant land?
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby agapit » Wed May 04, 2011 5:26 am

The genius and cobweb cleaner from NZ, can you tell me how one would go about accelerating a natural swing on the rope or pole if the goal is to maximize center of gravity height above the grip? And my friend I charge USD for videos and video analysis, personal session and recommendations, unless of course I like you, and i dont really know who you are, but posts are free for all :)
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby agapit » Wed May 04, 2011 5:52 am

tsorenson wrote:Another view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ3DVGCu2_s


Nice example! Remember also that pole bends due to enormous energy generated in the runup and because of that the botom arm grip will move away from the chest no matter what your left arm does. The goal is to be in the best position at the takeoff and beyond to begin the swing acceleration as soon as possible, hence the free takeoff becomes essential. And yes as Alan mentioned, the left arm can beging the pulling action, while the bend increases and left grip moves away from the chest, in an eccentric flexion.

In this video I see the correct actions except I also see that the acceleration of the swing is not conscious perhaps without the development effort of that action. That is why we see excessive shortening of the swing. Imaging where he would be if he puts focus in his training on that!

In this video he just works with the pace of the pole not faster then the pole. Good indicator of that is that his feet begin to move down while he is still holding the pole.
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