Pole Vault Manifesto

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

Is 18ft vault possible for women

Poll ended at Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:12 pm

Yes
34
56%
No
27
44%
 
Total votes: 61

KYLE ELLIS
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed May 04, 2011 11:20 am

I know Brad walker doesn't pull, I know Steve Hooker doesn't pull (from what they have said).

Every article I have read relating to Petrov talks about the opposite of pulling. Every video I have seen of Petrov in action with his athletes shows no pulling (like the one I posted of Petrov and Gibilisco). Every coach I have talked to that has worked with Petrov talks nothing of pulling, in fact they talk about making space during the swing. I have tried pulling, and I have tried pushing; guess which one worked far greater for me and the athletes I coach.

No need to tear me down, I am not a scientist or have equipment. I am not saying I am smarter than anyone, I was just trying to see if there was a hidden misinterpretation of the 6.40 model and Bubka/Petrov model... Now I believe there is, and you can't say Bubka pulls because it blatently obvious that he doesn't.

How can we accelerate the natural swing? By pushing down the pole- does this not accelerate the shoulders down and the hips up? This is why I gave my example because you have to swing long to get the hips up, if you pull with no momentum you do a pull-up; the hips don't rise?

After takeoff there are two parts to me the swing and the extension. Is it not impossible to start raising ones COG during the swing? If so then why pull? If you push and stay long it allows your hips to be on top of a fully bent pole, which allows for a long pull/ extension phase. Doesn't everyone have to wait until the extension begins before being able to move ones COG up the pole?
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Wed May 04, 2011 11:21 am

I believe that if the takeoff and swing are begun correctly (which can only happen if the approach is done correctly), then the harder you pull with the bottom arm the more it will straighten in the middle of the jump. This is a case of appearances being deceptive. As the bend in the pole increases, the pole moves forward and the hands go with it. The muscular effort comes through the shoulder and not the biceps leaving the arm free to straighten.

I may be a little off on my physiology, but I think it is the serratus anterior that is activated in this motion, a sort of reverse shrug. If you press your shoulders up as high as you can above your ears and then pull them down as far as you can, you will find that they move both down and forward. If you do nothing but push your hands forward from this same position, the same thing will happen. The shoulders move down and forward. For some people the focus on the forward motion gets the right thing to happen, for others it is attention to the downward effort that works. I really think this is the cause of the eternal debate between rowing (pushing down the pole) and pulling. It may very well be the same thing.

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed May 04, 2011 11:43 am

Tim McMichael wrote:I believe that if the takeoff and swing are begun correctly (which can only happen if the approach is done correctly), then the harder you pull with the bottom arm the more it will straighten in the middle of the jump. This is a case of appearances being deceptive. As the bend in the pole increases, the pole moves forward and the hands go with it. The muscular effort comes through the shoulder and not the biceps leaving the arm free to straighten.

I may be a little off on my physiology, but I think it is the serratus anterior that is activated in this motion, a sort of reverse shrug. If you press your shoulders up as high as you can above your ears and then pull them down as far as you can, you will find that they move both down and forward. If you do nothing but push your hands forward from this same position, the same thing will happen. The shoulders move down and forward. For some people the focus on the forward motion gets the right thing to happen, for others it is attention to the downward effort that works. I really think this is the cause of the eternal debate between rowing (pushing down the pole) and pulling. It may very well be the same thing.



I hope so, and that is what I was tring to find out.
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby dougb » Wed May 04, 2011 5:35 pm

"Sorry to rude DB but if you believe that there is more than one way to vault, is it reasonable to expect that this philosophy is being translated into producing vaulters in your green and pleasant land?"

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby Pogo Stick » Wed May 04, 2011 6:23 pm

"A picture is worth a thousand words"

Here is my attempt to explain some possible combination of pushing/pulling with corresponding forces. Please understand that if you, for example, pull down, the resulting force will have opposite direction (up) and vice versa. It is a simplified model, but all important stuffs are here:
IMAG0045.jpg
IMAG0045.jpg (60.67 KiB) Viewed 7513 times


#1: just swing, no push nor pull
#2: If you push down the pole, the COG will go faster up, but slower forward. The result: less penetration, more height
#3: If you pull up the pole, the COG will go slower up, but faster forward. The result: more penetration, less height
#4: If you push perpendicular to the pole, the COG will go slower up and slower down. The result: less penetration, less height
#5: If you pull perpendicular to the pole, the COG will go faster up and faster down. The result: more penetration, more height.

Which one you want to be?
#5 is obviously the best case. It increases both vertical and horizontal speed/ force/energy.
#4 is all bad and is typical for "straight left hand" or "pole crush" vaulters.
#3 and #2 can possibly have some interesting applications:
- If you are on soft pole or low grip (and land deep on the mats), you can add some vertical speed by pulling down (#2). You will land closer to box, but can save the jump. Better way is go up with grip or to stiffer pole
- If you cannot penetrate enough (gripping too high, sudden head wind, takeoff speed slower than usual), you can pull up the pole to increase horizontal component. This can help you to land on the mats and save yourself from injury but forget clearing the bar. In any case, you are either gripping too high or are on too stiff pole.

Comments?
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby golfdane » Thu May 05, 2011 6:24 am

I find this video rather interesting. Is the bending of the pole the result of pulling or just the weight of the vaulter? He's definately not swinging from his top hand alone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX-sJlKrrbQ&feature=related

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby agapit » Thu May 05, 2011 9:19 am

KYLE ELLIS wrote:I know Brad walker doesn't pull, I know Steve Hooker doesn't pull (from what they have said).

Every article I have read relating to Petrov talks about the opposite of pulling. Every video I have seen of Petrov in action with his athletes shows no pulling (like the one I posted of Petrov and Gibilisco). Every coach I have talked to that has worked with Petrov talks nothing of pulling, in fact they talk about making space during the swing. I have tried pulling, and I have tried pushing; guess which one worked far greater for me and the athletes I coach.


Kyle, I'm saying that both of those guys are working in pace with the pole and are passive in the second phase of the jump (vault). They are not working ahead of the pole as I mentioned. Now if they are happy with where they are - good, If they are looking for ways to improve their performance I gave my observation.

Kyle I'm a busy man and have no desire to argue with you at all. I am not asking you to pull. I don't care what you do. I am not writing this post to argue, but to share my knowledge and experience which you don't have. Please start your own post and do what ever you want there. You can even start a post against the pull with quotes and testimonies from whoever you want. Just please let me work with people who are trying to learn what I have to say.

I asked you to think a few days about Warmerdam, did you? If you did, what are your conclusions?
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agapit
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby agapit » Thu May 05, 2011 9:22 am

golfdane wrote:I find this video rather interesting. Is the bending of the pole the result of pulling or just the weight of the vaulter? He's definately not swinging from his top hand alone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX-sJlKrrbQ&feature=related


It's obvious that to accelerate their inversion they would have to pull with left :)

I have abandoned this exercise a while back because it has a "dead end" which does not, or should I say, should not happen and other then some left arm awareness in my opinion this exercise has very little training effect. Is it ok for me to say that? I think, I see Vitaly in the video :) I also do not do sliding box, underwater vault, left arm pole pushes and a few other drills.
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agapit
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby agapit » Thu May 05, 2011 11:49 am

I must tell you that in 1990, we thought that Bubka was worth 6.30-6.40m. No one on the scene now looks like they worth 6.30+ and so 5.95-6.05 is a good height, but it does not motivate me to get out of bed every morning after seeing the possibilities. So the purpose of this post is to pinpoint reasons why I think no one can get close to what's been already shown 20+ years ago by Bubka.
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rainbowgirl28
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Thu May 05, 2011 12:53 pm

agapit wrote: but it does not motivate me to get out of bed every morning after seeing the possibilities.



LOL... so what is your motivation to keep living now that the pole vault world has let you down? ;)

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby atlegu » Thu May 05, 2011 2:31 pm

I know Brad walker doesn't pull, I know Steve Hooker doesn't pull (from what they have said).


What about Isinbaeva?

Looking at this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlWRPDNZ9c0&feature=related (go to 1.55). For me it seems like she is pulling !

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby agapit » Thu May 05, 2011 3:26 pm

rainbowgirl28 wrote:
agapit wrote: but it does not motivate me to get out of bed every morning after seeing the possibilities.



LOL... so what is your motivation to keep living now that the pole vault world has let you down? ;)


I never said dear rainbow, that pole vault world let me down. I owe most everything I have to the event. I love it and very passionate about it. It was a figure of speech, not to diminish the 6m heights, but to just describe my desire to see 6.30+ again and yes 18’ for women, whether I coach someone (I hope, God gives me a few years) or in some way help others with whatever I can.

I have coached variety of athletes including all-american in NAIA, NCAA II, high school state record holders, pro athletes and help others with advice. Several of my athletes are coaches now that also coached record holders, etc. I coached a first, since 1984 LA Olympics, US medal in major international competitions - indoor World Championship silver in Paris 1997, blah, blah, blah. I think we had a vibrant and spirited, at times, competition that propelled US pole vault forward. I thank UCS Spirit’s Steve Chappell and Bob Fraley who were extremely instrumental in helping me along the way, directly or indirectly and I want to think that I have had some positive contribution.

I am working with a post collegian girl now her PR is 12’9” and she just moved to Knoxville a month ago from Boone NC, where she was training with my friend Daniel Isaacs. She has only about 2 years of vaulting experience (5’3”, 120LBS, fun girl). I’ll keep you informed.

We are all having fun here in Knoxville vaulting community; Tim Mack has good high school kids, David Job works with UT girls and some post collegians, Russ Johnson coaching UT men. We keep in touch with Lawrence Johnson, who is coaching at USC in Colombia South Carolina. I have a cool business that allows me to get back into coaching and like I said we all having fun here!

Is my style of presentation giving you concerns? Am I running people away from your site? I don’t want to impose ;)
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