GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:42 pm

Will, I believe the entire premise of your Gravity Vector point is that Lavelillenie has found a superior way to load the flexing pole earlier,while in the air by keeping his Cog low by keeping his legs and hips back more and longer in his swing. You now have fully explained from a Physics standpoint why this is advantages and how and why it allows the forces of gravity to be more effective. I concur with your observations and Physics. I believe he initiates this immediately as soon as his feet leave the runway by having a flatter take off, less knee drive, more extended bottom arm, lowering his drive knee and double leg swing. It is obvious to me by the very fact that he is doing ALL of these things, and all of these things lower the vaulters COG, that his intent is a low path, low COG downswing. Look at PV Students side by side comparison of Lavillenie and Bubka. This is indisputable.

Now that this is established (at least between you and I) I am imploring you to take a look at another observation I have made and to try to use your understanding of the poles motion, lean,bend, rotation (Path), coil and uncoil to understand and explain the advantages or perhaps disadvantages of my observation. My observation while watching both slow motion Video and also side by side still comparisons of Lavellenie and Bubka (Thanks to PV Student) is that Lavellenie has earlier and perhaps even more elemental pole rotation with his method than Bubka has with his. Look at PV Students stills on page 7. Photos 5,10 and 14. Obviously Lavellinie method provides faster and perhaps even more natural pole rotation and I believe it is because he is not fighting it. Why is this important you may ask? The poles. lean, coil,uncoil and elemental rotation places significant centrifugal forces on the vaulters body. My theory is that Lavellenies method has found a better way to take advantage of those centrifugal force and the poles path, by lining himself up with it better in time and space and using it to more easily cover the pole in an efficient manner to take advantage of its forces throughout his swing and into flyaway. That's enough to chew on for a bit. Take a look at this video and tell me if you think it has any merit? http://howtopolevault.com/video_facts.html
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:07 am

Some of you may laugh at this guys ideas and I don't care. They make perfect sense to me and match my observations of things Lavellenie does better to match the natural charcteristics of what the pole wants to do. Here is another one of his videos. His ideas came out prior to lavellinies World record and it is entirely possible Lavillenie incorporated his ideas. Here is another. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnKFwEpIVk
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
KirkB
PV Rock Star
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
Lifetime Best: 5.34
Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:55 am

willrieffer wrote:
PVDaddy wrote:Do you agree that Lavellenie does a better job of not fighting the poles elemental rotation better than Bubka?

I don't know that I can say as I don't exactly know what we would be talking about here. I have no idea how you see Bubka "fighting" the poles elemental rotation. I have read your ideas in the thread, but again, am not sure quite what to make of them. ...

Willrieffer, I was going to ask you to define the term "elemental pole rotation" ... but never mind.

I found the source of all this wisdom! It's at the 20-second mark of this vid!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAELTlDbAps
HORIZONTAL ELEMENTAL BENT POLE ROTATION

Mystery solved! LOL! :D

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:53 am

Kirk:
"Willrieffer, I was going to ask you to define the term "elemental pole rotation" ... but never mind.

I found the source of all this wisdom! It's at the 20-second mark of this vid!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAELTlDbAps


First of all Kirk Willriefer was not the one to use the term "elemental pole rotation" on here, I was.
Second of all, you found the term on my post. Post that you said were on ignore? :confused: That's ok Kirk just sit back and learn from me, like you always do. I don't mind educating uneducated people and I certainly find joy in you exposing your closed mindedness and inability to have self critical thinking skills. Now all of a sudden you new all of what Will was saying all along? Good grief! :no: Same to you Grandvaulter. What you said to Will is lame. I have no problem understanding him at all and really enjoy his post. I learn from them and I thoroughly enjoy the fact that he is able to back a lot of my own thoughts with valid Physics unlike a lot of you wannabees!

Anyway Will, will you please respond to my most recent post as I really would Love to here your opinions?

Will, I believe the entire premise of your Gravity Vector point is that Lavelillenie has found a superior way to load the flexing pole earlier,while in the air by keeping his Cog low by keeping his legs and hips back more and longer in his swing. You now have fully explained from a Physics standpoint why this is advantages and how and why it allows the forces of gravity to be more effective. I concur with your observations and Physics. I believe he initiates this immediately as soon as his feet leave the runway by having a flatter take off, less knee drive, more extended bottom arm, lowering his drive knee and double leg swing. It is obvious to me by the very fact that he is doing ALL of these things, and all of these things lower the vaulters COG, that his intent is a low path, low COG downswing. Look at PV Students side by side comparison of Lavillenie and Bubka. This is indisputable.

Now that this is established (at least between you and I) I am imploring you to take a look at another observation I have made and to try to use your understanding of the poles motion, lean,bend, rotation (Path), coil and uncoil to understand and explain the advantages or perhaps disadvantages of my observation. My observation while watching both slow motion Video and also side by side still comparisons of Lavillenie and Bubka (Thanks to PV Student) is that Lavillenie has earlier and perhaps even more elemental pole rotation with his method than Bubka has with his. Look at PV Students stills on page 7. Photos 5,10 and 14. Obviously Lavillinie's method provides faster and perhaps even more natural pole rotation and I believe it is because he is not fighting it. Why is this important you may ask? The poles. lean, coil,uncoil and elemental rotation places significant centrifugal forces on the vaulters body. My theory is that Lavellenies method has found a better way to take advantage of those centrifugal force and the poles path, by lining himself up with it better in time and space and using it to more easily cover the pole in an efficient manner to take advantage of its forces throughout his swing and into flyaway. That's enough to chew on for a bit. Take a look at this video and tell me if you think it has any merit? http://howtopolevault.com/video_facts.html
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

willrieffer
PV Whiz
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:00 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, Current High School Coach
Lifetime Best: 15'
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: All of them...

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby willrieffer » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:04 am

ALL of my analysis is POSTERIOR. I analyze vaults and form that have happened.* What I am doing differently is describing WHY certain elements of the vault that have been intuitively known work by the principles of physics. Generally ones that have lowered the CoM during the post take off like the double leg. Or as with Kirk's response on ideas of the tuck/shoot.

So much of what I am saying IS/WAS intuitively known, but it had no physics explanation. I have given one.

As was pointed out, the CoM doesn't really rotate as the chord. It follows it's own complex curve from take off to clearance. The shape of that curve is ultimately what I'm talking about and in particular its rate of change relative to pole compression in the immediate post take off.

Daddy,

I still don't know what you are getting at even watching the video. Airstrike...

The CoM and its curve is everything.

Will

P.S. Okay the above is for the Kirk supplied Airstrike vid. And now I have watched yours. And...I will say....no more Airstrike vids. That's a bunch of junk...

*I have theorized that the French more or less found my ideas before me. Dossevi was an experiment. And then Lavillenie was the marriage of a PB takeoff with the different swing approach. I was NOT doing this before the appearance of Lavillenie. Let's just put that to rest...

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:23 am

I respectfully disagree with your assessment of airstrike will and how I believe Lavillenie does a better job of utilizing the centrifugal forces of the poles Natural elemental rotation and uncoiling then Bubka does Will, and I believe there is a great deal to learn from it. I believe the answer to Kirks question in how Lavillenie is able to swing as slowly as he does and then is still easily able to cover the pole in time is found there.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

willrieffer
PV Whiz
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:00 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, Current High School Coach
Lifetime Best: 15'
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: All of them...

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby willrieffer » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:10 am

PVDaddy wrote:I respectfully disagree with your assessment of airstrike will and how I believe Lavillenie does a better job of utilizing the centrifugal forces of the poles Natural elemental rotation and uncoiling then Bubka does Will, and I believe there is a great deal to learn from it. I believe the answer to Kirks question in how Lavillenie is able to swing as slowly as he does and then is still easily able to cover the pole in time is found there.


Just ask yourself, which way does the CoM path curve...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_force

Centrifugal force (from Latin centrum, meaning "center", and fugere, meaning "to flee"[1][2]) is the apparent force that draws a rotating body away from the center of rotation. It is caused by the inertia of the body. In Newtonian mechanics, the term centrifugal force is used to refer to one of two distinct concepts: an inertial force (also called a "fictitious" force) observed in a non-inertial reference frame, and also sometimes to the equal and opposite reaction to a centripetal force in any reference frame (as per Newton's third law of motion).

This is key. Centrifugal force is not "real" but is apparent. It is in contrast to the real that can be applied to rotational movement, Centripetal Force or Acceleration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal_force

A centripetal force (from Latin centrum "center" and petere "to seek"[1]) is a force that makes a body follow a curved path. Its direction is always orthogonal to the velocity of the body and towards the fixed point of the instantaneous center of curvature of the path. Isaac Newton described it as "a force by which bodies are drawn or impelled, or in any way tend, towards a point as to a centre."[2]


The mass in question is the CoM which is moving horizontally. Further, as has been my point it is under the influence of gravity. So lets look at this scenario. A man runs down the runway which ends in a cliff. When he reaches the end of the runway he begins to fall in an arc toward, say, the body of water under the cliff. Now, lets say he was in space and the runway was on a spaceship. When he reaches the end, he flies straight off. Why? There is only his own inertia to effect his path.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia

Inertia is the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion, including changes to its speed and direction. It is the tendency of objects to keep moving in a straight line at constant velocity. The principle of inertia is one of the fundamental principles of classical physics that are used to describe the motion of objects and how they are affected by applied forces.


The inertia of the vaulter is to keep going in the direction of the runway sans their generated take off elevation. The pole is effective against gravity. Centrifugal force is the illusive force that keeps water in a bucket as when a man spin it around himself at arms length. Its illusion is the product of two forces, inertia, and centripetal acceleration, which in the case of a man with a bucket, goes through the bucket, his arm, and is anchored at his shoulder. Since the pole isn't even anchored in the box, you haven't even the chance to see any of this.

Will

User avatar
KirkB
PV Rock Star
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
Lifetime Best: 5.34
Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:38 pm

willrieffer wrote: Since the pole isn't even anchored in the box, you haven't even the chance to see any of this.

I understood all but this last sentence. What do you mean here? :dazed:

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:24 pm

Will, From the moment a vaulters foot leaves the ground the pole begins to lean to,rotate to and a bend in the opposite direction of the vaulters top hand. This applies a force to the vaulter and effects his swing path. If this force were not present the vaulters orbit about its axis would continue in a linear direction (the runway) and in the same plane. I have chosen to call this force "Centrifugal" because this is what I heard used to describe this force elsewere and for lack of a better term. As stated in the definition it is a force that draws a rotating body away from the center of rotation. If you have a better term for that force please share it and I will desist from using it.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

willrieffer
PV Whiz
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:00 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, Current High School Coach
Lifetime Best: 15'
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: All of them...

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby willrieffer » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:50 pm

KirkB wrote:
willrieffer wrote: Since the pole isn't even anchored in the box, you haven't even the chance to see any of this.

I understood all but this last sentence. What do you mean here? :dazed:

Kirk


Ever been fooling around with a short straight pole and as you progress through the vault you and it fly out of the box? IF it were anchored in the box on a pivot mechanism AND you held on, that force that you would feel "pulling" you and your hands towards the box against the pole would be the appearance of the centrifugal based on the pole anchor supplying a centripetal force. No vaulter ever feels that force...

You get on a merry go round and push it. It feels like you want to fly off the thing. There is no "force" causing this, but it is inertia. IF there is something to hang onto, you can stay on by applying a centripetal force.

I hope that clears things up.

Will

willrieffer
PV Whiz
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:00 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, Current High School Coach
Lifetime Best: 15'
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: All of them...

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby willrieffer » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:55 pm

PVDaddy wrote:Will, From the moment a vaulters foot leaves the ground the pole begins to lean to,rotate to and a bend in the opposite direction of the vaulters top hand. This applies a force to the vaulter and effects his swing path. If this force were not present the vaulters orbit about its axis would continue in a linear direction (the runway) and in the same plane. I have chosen to call this force "Centrifugal" because this is what I heard used to describe this force elsewere and for lack of a better term. As stated in the definition it is a force that draws a rotating body away from the center of rotation. If you have a better term for that force please share it and I will desist from using it.


Okay. Its delivered by the pole. It's just the force of the pole. It is not simple. It is complex. Very complex.

In some sense this seems to be concerned as well about the take off vector of the vaulter. That is pertinent and valuable.

There's a pretty good HS vaulter around here already in the sights of at least one college with historically good PV. And he makes this wicked right of the runway bow out in his approach. It can't be good.

You want everything to be as straight as possible going forward and then up with the CoM. Lengthening the CoM lever of the vaulter helps.

I am open, now that this has been cleared up. Your turn.

Will

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:35 pm

Ok Will (You can call me Joe. I chose to take the handle "PVDaddy" only because we all know many dad's can be over bearing at times and it was to illicit that response. I know it was kinda wrong, but,I have a bit of sick sense of humor! LOL).

So what I am suggesting is that not only does Lavellinie make every effort to keep his COG low (Flatter take off, greater extension and held extension of bottom arm, less knee drive, the lowering of the drive knee and double leg swing to take full advantage of the GV (As you have stated and shown why from a Physics standpoint) in the early stages of his swing, but, he also does everything he can to induce earlier and much greater pole rotation. Like Airstrike is suggesting, I believe if a vaulter does not fight the elemental rotation of the pole it makes it not only easier to load (more efficient) but also makes it easier to cover. I believe It also places the vaulter in the best Biomechanical position possible ,providing they position their swing and its timing to match the natural elemental rotation, movement, coil and recoil characteristics of the pole in order to receive the maximum amount of Centrifugal (Is this the correct term?) forces the pole has to offer! :idea:

So what are some things that lavillinie does different than Bubka to effect (Increase) the rotation of the pole? As you stated his low COG at penetration results in a greater early pole bend, shortening the chord and thus greater rotation. But why is this so from a Physics standpoint? Is it because it provides Lavillenie with a longer lever (L-shape) and therefore greater leverage? I have noticed at plant Lavellinies take of angle is different and he appears to be taking of more from the right side and his drive knee is pointing more to the left and inducing more spin on the pole. Bubka appears to be attacking straight on. Also going into penetration his spine twist much more and this is evident by the left to right movement of his trail leg. At this point Lavellilenies bottom hand is already extended and Bubkas hand is above his head. I am suggesting that as Bubka performs the upward and forward extension of his bottom hand this limits the natural rotation of the pole. lavellinie just glides in his low Cog position which allows the pole to rotate freely and uninhibited. He is just allowing the GV and pole rotation to work its magic. Lavellinie's pole has already rotated a great deal at this point and Bubka's hasent even rotated at all. Both of Lavelinies feet are pointing straight down taking full advantage of his GV ride and Bubka's feet are spread way apart with his drive knee high. At this point Lavellinie loosens his thumb grip on the bottom hand and keeps all his weight on the top hand (The end of the lever) which provides more pole bend and allows the pole to rotate even more freely and Bubks has a tight grip on the pole. Lavellinies swing path is orientated much more severely to the left and in order to orientate it to the target he must pull down on the pole with his bottom hand and direct his swing to the right. Does that act speed pole rotation as well? As he swings he provides maximum lean on the top hand and the chord has reached it shortest length. His pole rotation has reached maximum velocity at this point and coincides perfectly with his double leg tuck which speeds rotation and at the same time he is able to capture the maximum centrifugal force the pole has to offer to his swing through its rotation and at the perfect moment. This is why Lavillenie is able to cover the pole so quickly from what appears to be a relaxed delayed swing (There you are Kirk). Airstrike (Chris Toledo) is not full of it. " Letting the pole IMMEDIATELY ROTATE is what allows you to JUMP! "Why?" BECAUSE there is little, if any, time for the pole to "push back" against you. YOU ARE NOW DANCING WITH THE POLE INSTEAD OF FIGHTING THE POLE! " That's were my ideas came from. He did not spell it all out, but he set me on the right track of thinking. :yes: Lavellenie has taken much better advantage of the forces of Physics both with his low GV swing and of equal importance, the centrifugal energy added to it by the poles rapid rotation!

Now at this point , from his frog like tuck,the pole has rotated so much more for Lavellinie as compare to Bubka's that its actually comical! He is way past the chord and the pole has rotated so far that it's actually behind him with the pole leaning toward and the top of it pointing (arc-() at the cross bars. Lavellenie has covered the pole so quickly that he actually has to wait for the energy added to his fly-away by the pole, as the final uncoiling of the pole takes place and he adds to that energy with the final dismount tap at the top of his swing with not one, but both legs! And....... A very strong Bottom Arm and finally a strong top arm push off the pole. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrQWsMa ... e=youtu.be

In order for us to have this conversation we are going to have to become very intimate with the natural lean of the pole, it coiling and uncoiling characteristics, and mainly its elemental rotation and movement at the lever (grip and spacing) and the forces it applies to the vaulter and the vaulter to it to effect its movement and the poles movement of the vaulter.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.


Return to “Pole Vault - Advanced Technique”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests