GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

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PVDaddy
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:42 pm

So to me the Lavellinie method of vaulting appears to offer 3 Main advantages. 1) It allows a shorter and even slower vaulter to cover a longer stiffer pole. 2) It allows the vaulter plenty of time to cover the pole and 3)It allows the vaulter plenty of time to line up for fly-away. Those are some darn good advantages if you ask me?
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby willrieffer » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:56 pm

PVDaddy wrote:
The more the pole compresses and the faster and shorter the chord gets, the more it rotates and moves to the clearance plane
.

Why is that Will? Also,Is there anything a vaulter can do beside compression, that would effect the speed and or amount of that rotation?


It has to do with the conservation of energy in a rotating body. As I often use, think of a figure skater doing a spin. They enter the spin with long levers, their arms and legs, and then as they pull them in they spin faster and faster. This isn't from their being more energy, but simply the way energy is carried in matter in relation to the rotational axis. The same thing works for the pole vault. This has been a big part of my analysis. But...

The PV system is basically a TWO pendulum system with both the pole and vaulter exhibiting changing length. This is why the analysis is difficult and ultimately needs calculus. Still, I took a logical shortcut. Since you want the pole to move further in time, that means faster, then compression rate and chord shortening ARE significant considerations. What can the vaulter do? Slow their swing as much as possible to align with the compression force of the gravity vector. That means that as the pole is compressing they should make themselves and long as possible, get the CoM as far as they can away from the top hand, and back in time as possible as it induces more and faster chord shortening speeding the pole rotation.

Much of the PB idealism to is to maximize pole rotation in the take off vector. To drive the pole around its axis.

Indications are Lavillenie has put the two ideas together. He's doing about everything I think you can do. I mean, at this time, I think he's out there as far as tech is concerned.

One thing you can do is use a softer pole, but there is of course a trade off. It doesn't return as high a recoil velocity.

Will

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby willrieffer » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:02 pm

PVDaddy wrote:I would also like to point out that Lavillinie has managed to cover the pole so quickly while performing his double leg tuck, (I believe that is because of his Low COG swing, the shortness in his tuck and the speed and position of the pole in its rotation at the time of his tuck.) that he has time to spare. The pole is out to his side at this point, It has rotated about 45 degrees. He makes no effort to extend is hips any further upward until the pole has rotated yet another 45 degrees and is now behind him. Why did he do that? Will the pole from this position apply the same forces and/or the same direction on Lavellinie that it applies to Bubka from his position and the position of his pole?


I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are pointing to here. But...

Notice that Lavillenie spends less time than anyone else "away" from the pole. He goes from "hanging" under it to rolling up very quickly over it. This again works to maximize his CoM relation to the gravity vector and pole. For the same is it effects the rate of the pole in compression, it effects the rate in decompression. When he moves his CoM over the pole, now it effects the recoil rate once again giving him more rotation and time in the vault to approach the clearance plane. I hope that answers this question.

Will

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby willrieffer » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:03 pm

PVDaddy wrote:So to me the Lavellinie method of vaulting appears to offer 3 Main advantages. 1) It allows a shorter and even slower vaulter to cover a longer stiffer pole. 2) It allows the vaulter plenty of time to cover the pole and 3)It allows the vaulter plenty of time to line up for fly-away. Those are some darn good advantages if you ask me?


Uh, yes.

Yes, indeed.

Will

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:10 pm

willrieffer wrote:
PVDaddy wrote:So to me the Lavellinie method of vaulting appears to offer 3 Main advantages. 1) It allows a shorter and even slower vaulter to cover a longer stiffer pole. 2) It allows the vaulter plenty of time to cover the pole and 3)It allows the vaulter plenty of time to line up for fly-away. Those are some darn good advantages if you ask me?


Uh, yes.

Yes, indeed.

Will

This may work for RL, but for most mere mortals (anyone under say 5.80m), it's a huge leap in logic to think that since RL is successful with this technique, it should be emulated by the rest of us.

For most vaulters, it WILL NOT give the vaulter plenty of time to cover the pole; and it WILL NOT give the vaulter plenty of time to line up for fly-away.

On the contrary, most vaulters will not be able to invert quickly enough to use this technique. Instead, they will stall out or flag out. This is the rub of most tuck-shooters.

I know you didn't specifically recommend this as sound technique for Beginner or Intermediate vaulters, but that's the inference, and it's only natural for young vaulters to strive to emulate the technique of the WR holder.

Will, I'm surprised that you agreed to this. It's not good advice. :no:

Kirk
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby willrieffer » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:36 am

KirkB wrote:
willrieffer wrote:
PVDaddy wrote:So to me the Lavellinie method of vaulting appears to offer 3 Main advantages. 1) It allows a shorter and even slower vaulter to cover a longer stiffer pole. 2) It allows the vaulter plenty of time to cover the pole and 3)It allows the vaulter plenty of time to line up for fly-away. Those are some darn good advantages if you ask me?


Uh, yes.

Yes, indeed.

Will

This may work for RL, but for most mere mortals (anyone under say 5.80m), it's a huge leap in logic to think that since RL is successful with this technique, it should be emulated by the rest of us.

For most vaulters, it WILL NOT give the vaulter plenty of time to cover the pole; and it WILL NOT give the vaulter plenty of time to line up for fly-away.

On the contrary, most vaulters will not be able to invert quickly enough to use this technique. Instead, they will stall out or flag out. This is the rub of most tuck-shooters.

I know you didn't specifically recommend this as sound technique for Beginner or Intermediate vaulters, but that's the inference, and it's only natural for young vaulters to strive to emulate the technique of the WR holder.

Will, I'm surprised that you agreed to this. It's not good advice. :no:

Kirk


I do not disagree and I have during the course made it a point at times to say as much. There are a lot of trade offs and a long learning curve. And, well, really, only one guy so far has put all of this together and pulled it off. I've made note that I find his tuck unique in time and the speed of its change. I've also recently said it appears scalar dependent, which is where I advised to watch Joe Dials progression. Or, you can't do this off a 10' pole because there isn't enough time...

I'm not teaching any of my vaulters to vault this way, but in a very much more traditional way. But even at that the concept is helpful. There is a need to "stay behind the pole" which increases through the progression.

Will

Still, it exists.

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:00 am

willrieffer wrote: There is a need to "stay behind the pole" which increases through the progression.

OK, but staying behind the pole is useless if you can't invert in time with the pole.

I think this question of mine is still unanswered:
KirkB wrote: What I'm really struggling with is how he can invert so quickly, without the aid of a "good" swing (like SB's), and in comparison to other 6.00m tuck-shooters? :confused:

Is it possible to answer this in a single sentence or paragraph, without any jargon? :confused:

The answer to this question is RL's secret sauce.

Kirk
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:20 pm

I think this question of mine is still unanswered:
KirkB wrote:
What I'm really struggling with is how he can invert so quickly, without the aid of a "good" swing (like SB's), and in comparison to other 6.00m tuck-shooters? :confused:

Is it possible to answer this in a single sentence or paragraph, without any jargon? :confused:

The answer to this question is RL's secret sauce.



As I have previously stated Lavellenie does every thing possible to increase the amount and speed of the poles rotation. He doesn't really have to swing to the top of the pole like Bubka does. All he as to do is tuck into a ball. In the process he places all of his weight on the top hand, which shortens the chord and causes the pole to swing even faster and uninhibited from his bottom hand. It also places the top of the pole closer to his feet. So rather than bringing his feet to his top hand, he simply allows the very fast rotating pole to bring his top hand to his feet! :idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrQWsMa ... e=youtu.be

I would add that I believe that the very fast rotating pole places his hands very similar and quickly into the position of a high bar which provides a better biomechanical position to perform his tuck from. Also, I am still convinced that a rotated pole is easier to invert on, as you are not fighting as much of the poles resistance.
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:47 pm

My question was addressed to Will.

I'm looking for a scientific explanation, not junk science or an unqualified opinion.

If Will can't answer this, then maybe PVStudent can?

Kirk
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:53 pm

So rather than bringing his feet to his top hand, he simply allows the very fast rotating pole to bring his top hand to his feet! :idea:
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby willrieffer » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:12 pm

KirkB wrote:
willrieffer wrote: There is a need to "stay behind the pole" which increases through the progression.

OK, but staying behind the pole is useless if you can't invert in time with the pole.

I think this question of mine is still unanswered:
KirkB wrote: What I'm really struggling with is how he can invert so quickly, without the aid of a "good" swing (like SB's), and in comparison to other 6.00m tuck-shooters? :confused:

Is it possible to answer this in a single sentence or paragraph, without any jargon? :confused:

The answer to this question is RL's secret sauce.

Kirk


These are very legitimate questions, Kirk.

Since he is not swinging, but almost anti-swinging/hanging he has to do something different. But again we are back at the properties of rotating bodies, energy, and velocity. RL "hangs" and stays back and delays the swing, or works to slow the swing velocity by pushing the CoM away from the top hand and the swing angle back in time. He's actually doing a bunch of things to slow the swing, not speed it up, or "free" it. This in fact does cause the problems you point out. It's the trick, but one which makes perfect physics sense to me. So, to any sort of conventional thinking on the event he's in a lot of trouble at the point right before he tucks. For you, it is to notice that probably no one else could get out of his position and cover. They would flag or get stuck under. As I pointed to in the other thread, its a lot like a stall swing "test" on a bigger pole. Now, to get over the top he really shortens his axis which both speeds the rotation AND makes it easier to "muscle" over the pole in time. He's "muscling" a shorter lever which makes it easier and faster. This is again because of the nature of gravity and its effect of a rotating lever in the plane and direction of the vault swing . And he does his tuck earlier in the swing angle than anyone else. The angle is relative to the swing velocity over time. So even as its timing might be similar to other tuck vaulters, he's behind them in swing angle. As I remarked earlier, he spends less time in the transition out away from the pole where extending the CoM out away from the pole just allows gravity to slow the swing as well as losing it in the compression/decompression rate of the pole.

Most vaulters even if they are tuck shooters actually swing/lever in the swing and transition and then tuck. It IS one way to get over the pole as the same with high bar. You actually work on the swing, whip, lever action. RL doesn't do that, or does a lot less of it. He's quasi swinging quasi hanging, and because he's doing all this stuff to stay back he couldn't possibly make it over "free" swinging or levering. So he just rolls up and quickly rolls over the pole. He's not a free swinger. He's not straight legged. It is tuck shoot taken to its extreme and refined with the "hang" approach, gravity relative, that he practices in the post take off/early swing.

I hope that helps

Will

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:32 pm

Will: Thanks, that's a good explanation. I know that he tucks "better" or "more completely" than any other tuckers, but I hadn't noticed how early he tucked. I'll look for that.

PVStudent: Any chance of quantifying how early he initiates his tuck, compared to other 6.00m+ tuck-shooters?

PVDaddy:
PVDaddy wrote:So rather than bringing his feet to his top hand, he simply allows the very fast rotating pole to bring his top hand to his feet! :idea:

This is utter nonsense.

First of all, it's not a scientific explanation. It's more of a way that you might (might) coach a vaulter to swing or tuck his feet up higher.

Secondly, it's logically impossible to bring the top hand to the feet!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-talk
Double-talk is a form of speech in which inappropriate, invented or nonsense words are used to give the appearance of knowledge and so confuse or amuse the audience.

See also: gibberish or gobbledygook

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!


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