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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:43 pm
by botakatobi
The following documents to a large extent the action of the arms during the vault from 1896 to Warmerdam. All comes from sourced pole vault books and or articles of the time.

o The working of the arms begins just before the twist is made, and consists of pulling with the right arm and pushing with the left. This lifts the body, and the twist carries it over, together with a strong push against the pole at the last moment, when the athlete feels his upward motion is changing to a fall. 1896.

o Pull. As the momentum of the vault begins to lessen, start the pull-up. The feet should be well above the shoulders when the pull is being made. The pull-turn-push ends with a hand stand at which point the feet are at
their highest elevation. 1923

• “A strong, powerful pull and a perfect take-off are 90 per cent of the successful vault. This pull should be a continuation of the momentum gained in the run. Jump from the ground, at the same time kicking or swinging the legs up close to the pole. The swing up of the legs and the pull-up of the arms should be together. The feet and body should be thrown as high above the bar as possible. In this effort however, do not straighten the arms. Keep the body close to the pole, so as to be in a good position for a strong push-off.” 1924

• “The pull up begins as the pole approaches a vertical position and after the hips are higher than the shoulders. This vigorous application of arm strength should follow smoothly and blend into the swing with-out checking or in any way impeding the forward, upward swing of the legs. The forearms should lie along the pole, and the pull is along the pole rather then at an angle with it.” Hips and legs remain flexed until finally straightened. The right leg leads the left in the ascent and should be permitted to swing until somewhat above the bar. The body turn should be secured at this moment by a vigorous kick upward and outward with the left leg. This should leave the vaulter in a hand stand position on the pole facing the landing pit. 1938

o The takeoff: This is probably the most important single phase of the vault. The pole is thrust forward into the takeoff box at the last two strides so that the takeoff foot and the pole hit at the same moment. The pole thrust should be a slow, gradual movement, not a jab. At the same time, the lower or left hand is shifted up to the right, the closer the better. Just before the body leaves the ground it should form a right angle of 90 degrees with the ground. The hands should be directly above the head with the elbows half flexed. Allow the body to swing forward with the right leg starting on the upswing. The elbows, which were flexed at the takeoff, will now be entirely extended so as to get the full benefit of the swing. After this slight delay, kick both legs up hard. The pull turn push: While the pull is being made, the right leg is crossed over the left, turning the body so that the stomach is nearest the bar. The pull and turn are made at the same time so that when the pull is completed the body will be in a clearing position with legs up high, ready for the push off. 1941 Warmerdam quote.

Re: Should you pull at take off?

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:22 pm
by grandevaulter
I took some of my own medicine and researched prior discussions with Agapit, Altius, ADTF, Branko and others ( 2013 ) .These discussions were subsequent to the 2005 topics from Agapit and Altius. Agapit claims that if a brick is dropped from a building that regardless of how much it moves, it still has the same amount of energy when it hits the ground. He claims that the most beneficial way to put energy into the vault is from the takeoff and that the C stretch does not add energy into the vault. Alan agreed with Agapit that even though it did not appear that Bubka was pulling, that he very well may have been pulling to accelerate his move to the cord of the pole and up to cover it.

Back to the comparisons of Branko's #1 and #2 . Number two does sweep the leg longer to the cord of the pole and bends the pole to create space and pulls to catch up with the pole. Number one pulls her legs in and does not appear to stay behind the pole as long at take off. She also does not appear to have as dynamic of approach run as #2. So "pulling with the bottom arm is good" But getting the left arm in the right position at takeoff is more important and facilitates the pertinent muscle action. This is not an equal comparison, too many variables.

Batkatobi, I like your research and I have learned several valuable lessons from you. The historic straight pole lessons seem to indicate a pull long after the take off, after the hands are slid together. It just doesn't seem that these work in the same fashion as the PB or 640.

Re: Should you pull at take off?

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:33 am
by KirkB
grandevaulter wrote: Batkatobi, I like your research and I have learned several valuable lessons from you. The historic straight pole lessons seem to indicate a pull long after the take off, after the hands are slid together. It just doesn't seem that these work in the same fashion as the PB or 640.

Batkatobi, I also like your research. Thanks for putting these quotes together.

Branko, I'm still looking for a good definition of what you mean when you use the word "pull".

Grandevaulter, I like your 2005-2013 PVP research. And for some paragraphs of Batkatobi's quotes, you are correct in saying that the straight-pole pull occurs well after takeoff, but for other paragraphs, this isn't as clear.

While it's useful to compare the pull of a straight-pole vaulter to the pull of a fiber-pole vaulter, it's not a perfect comparison, because for straight-pole, the takeoff (when the pole hits the back of the box) is so abrupt that the vaulter's body weight and momentum must be absorbed by both shoulders (and the weight of the vaulter distributed more evenly between the 2 arms); whereas with a fiber-pole, the bulk of the vaulter's weight (as much as the vaulter has the strength for) should be absorbed by the top arm and shoulder, and the bottom arm should be used just for balance.

And (if you follow Branko's recommendation) the bottom arm is also used to initiate the swing.

Is this what you mean, Branko?

My take on all this discussion is that the word "pull" can mean so many things to so many people, that misinterpretations are easily made. I still don't know what your definition of a "pull" is, Branko. What exactly do you mean when you say "pull"? What direction is the vaulter to pull in? Using what muscles? And when do you initiate it? :confused:

Or can you explain it by comparing it to doing a giant on the highbar? Is it THAT kind of a pull, or how is it different?


Re: Should you pull at take off?

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:13 pm
by grandevaulter
Cooleo111 wrote:This seems to support Branko's assertion that there was some technique (running technique counts, too) taught in his model.

Is this his model or m640 ?

Cooleo111 wrote:We also keep focusing on the long trail leg. Is this a biomechanical advantage?

Agapit has stated in previous writings that the pre stretch is not necessary (passive phase?) But looking at the comparisons of the two vaulters in Branko's video, it is evident that the vaulter that he describes as pulling and jumping higher, is also using a long sweep leg.