talented kid

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KirkB
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

grandevaulter wrote: This is a kid that I've been working with to whip kick and swing. Using the information on PVstudent's post to you, we've made progress. We're still working on continuing the top end.

GV, I think there's a couple steps missing. Before he whip kicks and swings, he should be stretching on takeoff (driving the chest forwards, but also driving up as if doing a basketball layup). Then, from this stretched (elastic) state, he needs to learn to start his swing simultaneously from the top hand and trail leg foot (to get a full-body swing, not just a leg swing). These inter-related details all need to occur before the whip/kick/swing that you're working on with him. :idea:

Just sayin'. :)

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

grandevaulter
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby grandevaulter » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:34 am

Thank you for the keen observation Kirk!

Look at this from last may. You may be hard pressed to find a 15 year old perform the free take off and hit the C position this well. This is the same guy that you said needs to push the chest through the shoulders. (Kinda looks like Bubka) https://youtu.be/Mu6SlCCNpVE

Hitting key positions of the PB technical model in the real world as described in the book "From Beginner to Bubka and Isenbayeva too" takes time. I follow you on the thought that these must be met in order to produce optimal results. But as Alan Launder said, "each vault is a one off" .

This is our third week back from a break and the second day of full jumps into a 15 mph head wind, temperature 50 F. His step was under 15 cm. We've been working primarily on long swings to get him to "swing long"!!! With little emphasis on other parts. I'm am more concerned about the key position "Swing to the cord of the pole" . He holds himself off with the left arm and does not get as long and straight as I'd like him to be.

You may be aware that the static and background noise from posters in the advanced section, two in particular (De Encausse Ideal technical and "From stall swing to world record") dispute that Petrov even had a technical model or that it may not be the most efficient way to vault. Launder (Altius) comments that young vaulters need a starting point that is safe and effective that clearly maps out a way to get from A to Z . He and Gormley (PVstudent) describe and illustrate with the use of photos, literature and drawings.

I'll continue to teach my kids this technical model and relax intolerance for stylistic differences. (In the real world with and without stick people) But it will be clear to anyone that sees our vaulters that they will be using the PB technical model. It is possible to achieve for young people that are willing to work at it and coaches that can grasp the concepts.

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KirkB
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:22 pm

grandevaulter wrote: This is our third week back from a break and the second day of full jumps into a 15 mph head wind, temperature 50 F. His step was under 15 cm. We've been working primarily on long swings to get him to "swing long"!!! With little emphasis on other parts.

Yes, I see a much better stretch in last May's vid than your most recent one. So perhaps showing the most recent one, where it's windy and cold and he's under is not the best portrayal of his technique.

grandevaulter wrote: Launder (Altius) comments that young vaulters need a starting point that is safe and effective that clearly maps out a way to get from A to Z.

I agree with this 100%. Even if Lavillenie's technique is proven to be superior to Bubka's (debatable), and even if the young vaulter aspires to "vault like Lavillenie", I firmly believe that he should learn to vault "by the book", following Petrov's methodology which is documented by Launder and Gormley in BTB2.

I say this for at least a couple good reasons (maybe more)...

1. There is no "book" to follow if you want to follow Lavillenie's technique. It is not as simple as just watching a vid of RL and then trying to copy what you see. There's more to it than what a naked eye can see. (e.g. Is he purposely keeping his COM low? Is he resisting with his bottom arm? What is his intent?) Even so-called experts make mistakes in interpreting PV vids, so this is NOT a good starting point for aspiring young vaulters.

2. If an aspiring young vaulter doesn't learn to drive the lead knee up, he won't get an optimal takeoff. Furthermore, he won't develop the core muscles needed to swing quickly to inversion. Said another way, a young vaulter doesn't have the core strength of a Lavillenie (or Roberts or Nordwig) to execute an optimal double-leg swing, and at low bars (say sub-5.00m), there is insufficient time (my opinion only, based on personal experience) to drive the lead knee up on takeoff then drop it, then double-leg swing.

For your 15-year-old protege, I would get him on the highbar more, to ingrain the stretch-to-swing motion into his muscle memory. Even giants would not be too advanced for him! :idea:

Keep up the good work! :yes:

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

grandevaulter
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Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:49 pm
Expertise: Three year highschool vaulter 1978-80. Now coaching highschoolers and competing in masters.
Lifetime Best: 11'
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Timothy Mack
Location: South West, MI

Re: talented kid

Unread postby grandevaulter » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:05 am

This morning.

https://youtu.be/GQLesV9RzUQ Highbar takeoffs

https://youtu.be/7sKhSSC5Szg Whip kicks

https://youtu.be/hqSbq07F264 Long swings

When we get forced inside due to weather we'll focus on running and planting drills and rings.

I don't mean to highjack your thread Steffan, I want you to see a few thing we do.

Georg

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KirkB
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:13 pm

Georg, it's good to see that you're having your 15-year-old doing those high bar drills! Keep up the good work!

I retract what I said about giants. I can see now that he's not ready for them.

Steffan, much of the advice directed to Georg and his protege apply to you and your kid too, so I think we're still on topic. :)

One piece of advice that I've often stated on PVP (and I think Altius said the same thing) is that if a kid can't swing properly on a highbar, how the heck do you expect him to swing properly on the pole, after he's blazing down the runway and taking off at full speed? :confused:

Related to this, Georg, and now that you've reminded me that you're going to lose your outdoor vaulting setup soon due to weather in northern USA, it may not be that helpful to be doing long runs. It may be better to shorten the runup, and focus more on the takeoff, stretch, and swing. :idea:

He can still do running workouts, and vaulting workouts outside, but maybe just split them into 2 separate drills at this time of year? Just an idea.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

PoleVaultStipke
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby PoleVaultStipke » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:53 am

Little update on this post. He jumped 4m70 last weekend and will be turning 16 next week...

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AjjRkokKnQVUs2Iwr4F6zWndOO6-

Shower me with toughts ;)

Kind Regards,
Steffen
Greatness is build one step at a time!


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