Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

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Re: Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:41 am

Branko720 wrote: ... As for a wider grip, how would that help? How are you going to get your lower hand and arm above your head with a wider grip. That will prevent your chest from opening up and cause your hip to move past your chest too soon in the vault. Watch any video of someone with a wide grip to examine this, and then watch Bubka and you can clearly see his hip stays behind his shoulders untill he swings. ...

Another question. Why would the wider grip and the torque or whatever you say benafit your path over the bar? What is the best way to get from point a to point b? In a staight line, you are elongating that trip. That is wasted energy. ...

Branko, I agree with you on this. :yes:

I prefer a grip that's so narrow that you MUST carry the pole high and drop it "weightlessly" ... shoulder width or slightly narrower. It pays off in the swing.

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Re: Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

Unread postby VTechVaulter » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:20 am

bel142 wrote:To clear things up, there are two schools of thought, one is you want a narrow grip and keep everything square, beucase a person's arms are genrally the same length so they need to be wicked narrow to grasp the pole and not allow for torsion of the shoulerds any direction left or right. With everything square the pengulum is at its most effective length.

The second is with a wider grip, when the pole hits the back of the box the force hits the vaulter and pushes one shoulder back just at tick, just from the acceptance of the enegery on the top arm/shoulder. This torsion of the shoulders puts a twist into the body that can be used like a spring or coil that is being wound to row and move the pole that can add energy into the system. I am talking about minimal movement of the shoulders, very small amount of movement.

In my opnion with the wider grip this allows for the chest to come in more, then when the vaulter moves the pole, this action (with a wider grip) is a little more effective w/ putting energy into the system. With those two ideas of technique people who like the first will think he is doing a great job at this, people like my self feel like he could be doing better.

hope that helps
-bel



who is your coach? or are you a coach yourself? im quite curious because this school of thought with the wider grip is exactly what ive heard from a lot of great coaches who dont follow the petrov model exactly
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Re: Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

Unread postby bel142 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:41 pm

Thats probably a page from my old coach who was earl's guy. Right now I am being coaches by one of Jan's guys out at PSU.

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Re: Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

Unread postby joebro391 » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:56 am

I really like where this thread is going :D

PS: I love you branko! congrats on the success of your recent camp!!! -Joe
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Re: Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

Unread postby polevaulter08nw » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:40 pm

Just a few notes...

One, when talking about the grip width and chest drive, if you were to widen Kurts grip how would it improve his chest drive?

Two, if you look at Rorys vault, explain how with his grip (looking wider) allows for more chest drive because Rory seems to be blocking himself out(Pushing his chest and himself away from the pole).

Three, how narrow are you talking about Kirk? Would there not come a point where it is too narrow? Bubka being pretty much the greatest technician and clearly following the Petrov model, did not have a super narrow grip, in fact his grip became wider as he grew older.

I agree with Kurt being on too big of a pole for 5 lefts. But as far as being used to the timing of the poles, Rory is obviously used to bigger grips and poles, therefor he can come on much larger sticks from short approach. I would say that Kurt does indeed have the better technique but there are many small reasons for jumping higher or lower than one looks like he/she should. One thing Kurt could be doing, because i know i do it when the bar goes up and i get excited, is simply initiating the swing too early because he wants to invert as quick as possible. This is a terrible habit of mine when jumping at 5.20 or higher, and the only meet this past year that i didn't fall victim to this i jump 17 with ease followed by a 17'6 and almost 17'8 clearance while blowing through my poles.
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Re: Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

Unread postby joebro391 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:47 pm

Petrov would say that in the 60 - 65cm range was good for grip. Me, being a smaller guys, my grip is about 55cm apart {shrugs}
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Re: Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:49 pm

polevaulter08nw wrote: ... Three, how narrow are you talking about Kirk? Would there not come a point where it is too narrow? Bubka being pretty much the greatest technician and clearly following the Petrov model, did not have a super narrow grip, in fact his grip became wider as he grew older. ...

To me, the grip width wasn't a factor during the downswing part of my vault. There, I just used the bottom arm for balance.

It IS a factor ... (a) during the carry (narrower is more difficult) ... and (b) during the plant (a bit narrower is a bit easier) ... and (c) during the upswing (narrower gets you a little higher).

I think shoulder width should be the absolute widest, but slightly narrower than that is probably more ideal ... if you can handle the pole carry during the run ... which can only be done with a high carry.

I don't know Bubka's rationale for his grip width. I just know that if the bottom arm is too low then it interferes with the optimal plant and the optimal upswing.

To better understand these 2 vault parts, imagine the "balance" of work done by the top arm and the bottom arm if your grip is extremely wide. I think it would negatively affect you plant (reaching too far forward and not far enough up) ... and your release after the upswing (you would have to rely much more on only your top arm, else you're releasing from a point where your CoM is lower than it could be with a narrower grip).

Now imagine the "balance" of work done by the top and bottom arms if your grip is extremely narrow. There comes a point where even with a "weightless" pole carry, the run and plant become too problematic.

I think the exact width will vary according to each athlete's strength and what they're comfortable with. I don't think you need to copy Bubka's EXACT width (in proportion to his height). I should also mention that all of my vaulting was done on 1970s-era poles, which were significantly heavier than today's poles. With modern poles, I'm quite sure that I would have NARROWED my grip even more ... which would have benefitted my plant and the upswing (especially the release). This admittedly makes my opinion about grip width rather extreme, so if you're looking for the "average" grip width, then take my opinion with a grain of salt.

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Re: Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

Unread postby polevaulter08nw » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:54 pm

To me it seems as though the vault you compliment most is a strait pole vault. I can understand what you say with grip width and the upswing being more efficient with a pole that does not bend or is not as long as the ones used today, though i will say that too many vaulters over bend there, how would a more narrow grip increase height off a pole that someone jumps on right now. It seems somewhat counter productive. Sorry for being brief.
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Re: Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:14 pm

[quote="polevaulter08nw"] On the contrary, I had a HUGE bend in my pole (too much). No matter the type of pole or the amount of bend, if you have a two-hand release, then the higher your bottom hand on release, the higher your CoM is going to be when you release.

I consider Bubka's release a two-hand release, since he doesn't continue to work the pole with only his top arm once his bottom arm has released.

Make sense now?

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Re: Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

Unread postby polevaulter08nw » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:54 pm

I think i understand, but to me bubka had a "two hand release" because he loaded so much energy into the pole with his transfer of energy being so great through the vault that the pole throws him, and not so much a choice of a single or double hand release. He is just launched off the pole and has angled himself off the pole as opposed to continuing to "work the top" with his right hand. But i don't think leaving the top hand on the pole longer means people are trying to work the pole more instead are just using it as a reference.
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Re: Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

Unread postby souleman » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:34 pm

I'm not a big fan of wide grips. (Just thought I'd get that out of the way). Frankly I was OK with the grips on both vaulters. My biggest beef about a wide grip is that too many times the vaulter will ride that left arm up, in a sense, block. Neither of you two block. That's good. One more thing about a wider grip to consider is what the wider grip does to your mass. In effect it lowers it. With the pole crossing your body from left to right, grab the pole the way you have been (your normal grip). Then, leaving your top hand where it is, widen the grip. You have to move the pole to the right to center your body. That means your mass will be lower, and you'll have to make up that difference during the jump. Granted, I'm only talking and inch or three but I'm sure both vaulters would be upset if their current PR's were 3 inches lower. Just something to think about. Bottom line is if you're comfortable with it, "don't fix it". It's obviously working pretty well the way it is now. That doesn't mean you can't experiment with a wider grip but I'm guessing that you'll find yourself back to where you are now. Check out Bubkas grip width. Keep in mind the monster poles he was jumping on. Then compare that to yours. If his (comparatively speaking) was wider than yours then figure out where that grip would be on the poles you are jumping on. Likewise the opposite. Finally, I don't want to get into the "your not supposed to pull" debate, but do some pull ups or chin ups or Bubkas with the wide grip and then with a grip that's shoulder width. I'm sure you'll find that the shoulder width grip will accommodate those exercises better than the wider grip simply because of the position of power you put your body in. I think this would transfer to my point about the wider grip in the vault. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin' consider what I've said as you explore this. In the end, what's right is what works the best for you. Later................Mike
P.S. Nice jumps by the way


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