5.05 bungee from a 5 step

[Polevaulter2012]

See our theroy is you have more aderinaline in a meet then practice. do you agree? Anyways our coach waits till we take off and then puts his hand on our mid back. Our run and take off is the same. This just helps drive your chest more forward and up. So the tap replaces the aderinaline you get in a meet. You may not agree with this but I can send you video of last year compared to how i am vaulting this year. The tap has allowed me to feel the positions i need to hit in the take off. So if the tap is done right it can be very helpful to some.

[tsorenson]

Scott & Robbie,
Tapping, as you now realize, is a sensitive issue on PVP, as is the bottom arm discussion. Everyone has strong opinions and sometimes the discussions can get argumentative. I'm not going to touch the tapping issue except to say that I don't do it simply because it freaks me out, but I don't have a problem with it in small doses. The only reason I am jumping into this discussion is to further my understanding of the all-important "bottom arm" issue and to help you guys and other readers to make their own objective analysis.

One thing that might interest you: Do a search on "bottom arm" on PVP and you can read people's opinions/thoughts until your eyes fall out. The benefit of this forum is that by reading different coaches' theories you have an opportunity to make an objective analysis of what you believe to be true. As vaulters, you also have the opportunity to try various techniques and see what "feels right", as long as it fits in with your coach's philosophy and training schedule. As I said before, I have the utmost respect for your coach and can honestly say that he is the best PV coach I have ever seen in action, so none of this discussion should be taken as a critique of his techniques. My belief is that his comment about "more than one coach making an athelete great" has more to do with the variety of ways people learn rather than a variety of models or theories. As I said in my first post, sometimes you can get caught "between two models" and can become confused, screwing up your vaulting completely...so don't do that!

In regards to the bottom arm, I can tell that Altius is not wanting to get back into that discussion again, but if you re-read my first post on this topic (the part about Bubka's bottom arm) you will hear what I believe to be his opinion on the matter, taught to him by Petrov. Altius, please correct me if I am wrong. In a nutshell, you want to drive both arms up and through the takeoff (part of finishing the takeoff), but allow your bottom elbow to bend outward instead of staying straight (disengage the left arm and drive the chest forward/upward). You don't want the bottom arm to be soft, but actually very rigid in a flexed position...just like what it does on your stiff pole drills. If your left elbow does not bend outward, then you change the axis of rotation of your swing to a lower point. The point of this is to swing through your top hand, which is the highest point on the "vaulter-pole system"...makes sense to me. As your swing starts, you re-engage the left arm through the shoulder and your elbow should naturally straighten back out as the pole bends away from you. This straigtening effect is magnified on longer poles, giving the impression to some people that all elite vaulters use a straight bottom arm.

One thing I know for sure is that young athletes certainly can not vault properly with a straight bottom arm when their takeoff point is 12' or less from the box...people who jump from farther out can take off in a much more extended position without blocking. This is an important point which is not widely understood, and probably causes a lot of young vaulters problems. I agree that there are different ways to vault high but the Petrov model certainly works better for younger vaulters with lower grips!!

I have studied BTB carefully and experimented on the runway with different types of bottom arm pressure. I can say that my vaults feel much better when I am not locked out at the elbow with my bottom arm. My unfortunate tendency is to take off too far under, so I never get the bottom arm driving upward enough at the takeoff, which costs me dearly in terms of pole speed and size of poles I can vault on. When I was a younger vaulter I was always under but had a locked out bottom arm and tucked...now I am trying to implement the Petrov model and can say it is working pretty well considering how slow and heavy I am these days. When I focus heavily on driving the bottom arm I always end up locking it out and getting "stuck in the bucket"...however, I can stand up much bigger poles and higher grips but just can't swing naturally and long with proper timing. So which is better? Watching your vaults, you guys are doing so many things right that just a little more elasticity in the shoulders may be all you need. I seem to remember hearing your coach tell you that this is what you need to work on...

OK, sorry for rambling on, but from your questions I feel like this topic will be good fuel for discussion at your house full of vaulters. Jesse and I spend hours talking about this issue so I am always interested in other thoughts/opinions.

Take care,
Tom

[altius]

Your analysis is pretty spot on except the phrase " but allow your bottom elbow to bend outward instead of staying straight". You do not ALLOW it to bend outwards - if the bottom arm is correctly positioned on the the pole, as it is punched powerfully upwards it is impossible for it to resist the impact forces at take off no matter how strong the vaulter is - so the arm is forced to bend and the hand is driven back over the head Fig 7.4 in BTB. As you imply this is no way a soft action but a strong dynamic reaction to the forces involved as the take off is extended. Because the arm is always moving it is not a rigid position either.

If the bottom arm is positioned poorly in the carry and plant it inevitably goes into a position from which it will usually lock out. This is a fault, but it is so common that many folk believe that is what should happen.But you are right I do not want to go there again -you can take up the challenge.

[Polevaulter2012]

My belief is that his comment about "more than one coach making an athelete great" has more to do with the variety of ways people learn rather than a variety of models or theories.

Yeah this is what i ment. I am sorry for being unclear on this. But as for the bottom arm I think its whatever works for you. I do need to work on getting my left arm farther back and my head up. Something else i noticed is when i start to row i pull my left arm. This is just going to take time to fix. Erica Bartolina Told me to look at my hands at take off. I tried this today. this was a big help! I just need flexable shoulders now. Hey so we are thinking of going to the clovis street vault this year. would you guys be interested in going?

[KirkB]

... I know it can be tempting to use a tap to get on big poles in practice, but if you need a tap to get on that pole, you probably shouldn't be using it then. I don't practice on my competition pole, and if I did, I would call it my practice pole. Focus on the technique of the takeoff, and carrying the energy of a fast, tall run into the takeoff, and THAT will generate more confidence than a tap. ...

Wally hit the nail on the head.

In practice, you should always set your standards to 80 ... and even if the bar's not up, you should always strive to land in the same spot in the PLZ as if the bar was up with standards at 80.

Why? Becuz your best technique is learned that way ... especially learning the Whip; staying ahead of the pole; inverting early; "pull like hell"; and shooting to 1 o'clock (back towards the runway). You can't learn this technique if you're not landing well into the pit ... and you can't learn this technique if you have a fear of stalling out or coming up short ... and you CERTAINLY can't learn this technique if your coach is altering your natural swing by tapping you!

It's not about "getting on bigger poles" ... it's about learning / improving / perfecting your technique in practice on softer poles ... then executing the EXACT SAME technique in a meet on bigger poles when the adrenalin kicks in.

Really, "getting on bigger poles" is secondary to perfecting your technique. But once you're in the groove, you can EASILY go up a pole ... or maybe even 2 with a tailwind ... under the right competitive situations ... without tapping.

Tapping is a crutch ... it doesn't teach you anything about SELF-CONFIDENCE. It's FALSE confidence. So what if you can make the pit when your coach pushes you into it! What does that prove? It only proves that you can make the pit WHEN YOUR COACH PUSHES YOU INTO IT!

To gain self-confidence, you need to believe ... with 100% confidence ... that you're going to swing and extend to 1 o'clock ... and STILL land in the middle of the PLZ. You don't learn that by tapping.

Kirk

[tsorenson]

Alan,
Thanks for the clarification. This discussion has helped me understand the fine line between finishing the takeoff and blocking out...I'm sure that I am not up to the challenge of taking up the "great debate" but it's been fun to dabble. Hope to see you at Rick's this summer if I can make it.

Scott,
I'm afraid that I won't be able to make Clovis due to my crazy schedule (father of 3 boys 5 and under, student, coach, work) but I'm sure that we'll see you soon. My goal is to still be jumping when you guys come in for your opening height this year...

Tom

[Polevaulter2012]

In practice, you should always set your standards to 80 ... and even if the bar's not up, you should always strive to land in the same spot in the PLZ as if the bar was up with standards at 80.

Why? Becuz your best technique is learned that way ... especially learning the Whip; staying ahead of the pole; inverting early; "pull like hell"; and shooting to 1 o'clock (back towards the runway). You can't learn this technique if you're not landing well into the pit ... and you can't learn this technique if you have a fear of stalling out or coming up short ... and you CERTAINLY can't learn this technique if your coach is altering your natural swing by tapping you!

We always have our standards at 80. Our coach puts them at 80 all the time and sometimes at 120 depending on the focus of the practice. We do not use the tap this way.

It's not about "getting on bigger poles" ... it's about learning/perfecting your technique in practice on softer poles ... then executing the EXACT SAME technique in a meet on bigger poles when the adrenalin kicks in.

Well we use the tap for getting on bigger poles, but this is towards the end of practice after we have worked on are form on smaller poles. Then we carry it over to the bigger poles with a tap. This just lets us have the feeling of adrenalin, but the key is if our coach thinks we have enough speed and good take off he does not tap us. Then at the meet we feel confident on them and usually have to move to even bigger poles.

Tapping is a crutch ... it doesn't teach you anything about SELF-CONFIDENCE. It's FALSE confidence. So what if you can make the pit when your coach pushes you into it! What does that prove? It only proves that you can make the pit WHEN YOUR COACH PUSHES YOU INTO IT!

Well see the the thing is i always get in. no one on our team is dependant on the tap. When it comes to the meet its game time and we know that we can get on those big poles because we practiced on them.

To gain self-confidence, you need to believe ... with 100% confidence ... that you're going to swing and extend to 1 o'clock ... and STILL land in the middle of the PLZ. You don't learn that by tapping.

Well I have my standards at 80 at all times. I have 100% confidence that I will land on the PLZ, and i get taps. So i do not understand your point. You say that you cant learn confidence by a tap, but i feel more confident at meets because i was able to practice on my bigger poles because of the tap. So maybe a tap could be a good thing for some and a bad thing for others. This is just something that you cant argue about because its all about what works for you.

[Andy_C]

That's an interesting concept your coach uses for the tap. Maybe it works for you in some ways. But let me ask, have you ever practiced without any tapping? Instead of using the tap to get to a bigger pole, why don't you place even more emphasis on your technique to get to the next pole?

I'm not saying you don't make an effort with your technique, I'm saying what if you make an even greater emphasis on your technique.

[KirkB]

We always have our standards at 80. Our coach puts them at 80 all the time ...

... we use the tap for getting on bigger poles, but this is towards the end of practice after we have worked on our form on smaller poles. Then we carry it over to the bigger poles with a tap. ...

Hmmm ...

I've been thinking about getting a bigger bike. My bike has 26" wheels right now, but I want one of those new-fangled mountain bikes with 28" wheels. But I'm worried that I might fall off, since I've never been on a bike that big before. So I think I'll put on a pair of training wheels, and ride around the block a couple times ... just to get used to BALANCING on the bigger wheels. Then I'll just take the training wheels off ... and I won't be afraid of falling.

Yeh ... that's the ticket!

Kirk

[swtvault]

When confronted with the facts or opinions that experts and others present to you that differs from your own, It is good to reflect on a very profound Quote by the great Mike Tully.

"Go Get em"

[Polevaulter2012]

Then if a tap is not useful then why do i feel more confident on my bigger poles in a competition? My coach only gives us taps if he thinks we need them.Tell me why i am not afraid to get on bigger poles? because i get taps.

[Polevaulter2012]

That's an interesting concept your coach uses for the tap. Maybe it works for you in some ways. But let me ask, have you ever practiced without any tapping? Instead of using the tap to get to a bigger pole, why don't you place even more emphasis on your technique to get to the next pole?

I'm not saying you don't make an effort with your technique, I'm saying what if you make an even greater emphasis on your technique.

Andy_c: we practice technique all the time it is the greatest portion of our practice. We do not get taps at every practice either. Only on the full approach day before a competition do we get taps. We only take about 4 jumps with taps. We are never depend on a tap. He only taps us if he thinks we need it.