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Just trying to get some input... My vault on the 15'6'' pole was very poor, as for the movement to vertical. I fixed that later in practice but forgot to film it!!
let me know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlYWFE27pec

DJ is really the expert on this, but a 126' run with a 55' mid seems pretty far back for someone using a 15' or 15'6" pole. I can't see any of your run, but I would guess you are reaching on your last several steps instead of running tall with the feet striking close to the body. Just my guess.

Good morning,

i assume you adjusted the run back but with the same number of steps?? and then stretched?

this is where you need a longer run based on number of strides... then you need to keep a six step "MID" to grip that's close to the chart.. six step chart.

The only way to takeoff correctly (vault correctly) is to “not stretch”. And what I mean by correctly has been explained by Petrov.. Bubka… Alan.. and many, many others.

Does not matter if the “stretch” is a “little” or a “lot” it has a negative effect in jumping properly, it’s a huge down side at the plant and the vaulters ability to take off with an impulse (jump) and “free” and affects the swing, push or pull of the bottom hand, tuck and if the last step is stretched at all it will cause the vaulter to take a path on the swing that will result in a “flag position” at the top with little or no chance to go vertical unless the vaulter is strong enough to “muscle” their way into vertical.. even then the “push off” will become a “fall off” with no height above grip.

Why does a “MID” or run that is one foot out, 2 inches per stride, over the last six steps have such a great effect on the vault? Physics.. first if each step (stride) is two inches longer for the speed that you are running or trying to run you will “put on the brakes” on each step, slowing you down on each step a little more as you get to you last steps.. as you lose speed each step will get slightly longer and you will lose more speed right up to the plant and reach “under” trying to get to that “safe place” to take off with the slower speed you now have for the grip you are holding.

The second huge down side to overstriding is the in-ability to “impulse” (jump) at the takeoff.. you can’t jump because you have to “wait” for the mass to travel that short distance from the reach (foot contact in front of the mass) to getting the chest past vertical... to jump (impluse). Why do vaulters pull hamstrings? Because they are stretching and out of position to run and jump correctly so the “body” tries to “pull” itself into position staining the muscle.

So to do the things that Petrov, Bubka, Alan etc that says you must do.. increase the frequency of the last 6 steps while keeping the stride length the same, free takeoff with the pole fully extended, pre-jump (impulse/jump) etc.. you must have a correct “MID” based on the speed you need to move the grip you have chosen to vertical.

I have found over a 38 year time period that the Grip to “MID” numbers on my chart are as close as I or anyone in the world can get to being “ON”... very on.. with any “margin” of error in favor of “tightened” more explosive/faster (stride length and frequency) rather than stretched, slowed, in effective strides..

4 steps (two lefts/rights) is too late and doesn't work.. it only works if your 6 and 4 step are both on during the same run.... please believe me i have tried it with several world class vaulters... 4 only works correctly if the 6 "MID" was on also.... so why not use a 6???

Mike Tully’s short run (14 steps/ 7 lefts) “MID” was 52-8 ish with a 15-6 to 15-8 grip. He was 6-4 (which means nothing when you are determining stride length) and jumped 18-4 with good shots at 18-8 from those “numbers”.

“Form Follows Function”.. you get the last 6 steps correct (stride length and frequency based on grip) and your technique, pole carry, pole drop, plant on time, impulse and free takeoff will follow, which sets up a correct swing to vertical and off the pole.

dj

Petrov...

Maximum speed, its rationality towards the end of the run-up are established and depend on the correctly performed first strides.
It is necessary to stress here that the position of the pole and the vaulter/pole system influence the length and pace in the beginning of the acceleration.

Pole Drop

This final 3rd part of the run is characterized by the increased rate of the run while the length of the stride remains the same, thus achieving the maximum speed of the run-up. The length of the strides is a little shorter as compared to sprint, the body is straightened. The length of the strides should not change abruptly. The 2nd last step is longer than the last one by 10-20 cm (optional).

This part in covered in 6 strides and equals to 17,0 – 17,5 m (shown by top athletes of the world) if measured from the back of the box.
The key to the correct vaulting technique lies in practically all the movements of the drop and push part of the run-up – both for the beginners and for more advanced vaulters.

Without changing the running pace and running position, 6 to 5 strides before the push, the vaulter begins the drop. This is done with the help of pulling and rotation (initial) of the right hand.

During the next two run-up strides (4-3 steps) the vaulter’s attention is focused on the slight thrust of the hips forward without losing control over the shoulders, maintaining their leading role in the run-up.

While the right hand is being pulled, the right elbow is gradually drawn behind the back, thus making it possible during the last two run-up steps to lift the right hand with the pole up to the right shoulder.

The left hand remains at the same level as 6 steps before the push; while slightly moving ahead, it controls the height and advancement of the pole. Two steps before the push, the pole is a little higher – 10-15 cm above the vaulter’s center of gravity.

All these movements cannot be considered as a static position; the vaulter has already begun the drop 4 steps back, and here the pole simply crosses its horizontal line.

The drop must not be abrupt (if the vaulter was not late in initiating it), it must fall within the rhythm of the last strides.

When making the last two steps of the drop, the vaulter should not “lose” the pole by stretching the left arm forward (as if looking for support, the box). All the movements during the drop take place while the left hand is kept over the left elbow. During the last 6 strides, and especially during the last 3 steps, the vaulter must keep the abdominal muscles tight without breaking the line of his advancement; this will help him to drive the shoulders back even before the drop. A very important detail of the drop that will save him from squatting at the penultimate step, is riding the pole over the head before the vaulter arrives at the vertical position of the right leg. If he does it on time, then the right foot will take an active step on the late, beginning to accelerate to pole for the plant. The most dangerous moment during the drop is an early touch of the box when the transition is made from the right to the take-off foot.

Hi!!!
thanks for the advice on my run. I will get a video up of my full approach on tuesday after practice. I do not "over stride" at all, I am very tall and bouncy to my 55' mid, and accelerate through my take off... My run seems to surprise a lot of people, so I expected to hear a lot about that. Usually I do not have a problem with reaching, so that isnt an issue. I am consistently taking off from 13', which is about 4 inches "out". When I am taking off from 13' everything moves a lot easier and I can swing a lot longer. Again, on tuesday hopefully I will be able to get a video of that.

What about everything else though?
-Riley

One more thing about the run, this doesn't really have to do with the mid. It sounds like you're slowing down a little bit as you get closer to the box. Just based on hearing your cadence in the video. Can anyone else confirm that, or am i just going crazy?

Riley Crosby wrote:... I am consistently taking off from 13', which is about 4 inches "out". When I am taking off from 13' everything moves a lot easier and I can swing a lot longer.

What about everything else though?

Riley, if you're taking off from 4" out, then you should be attacking the pre-stretch from a pretty good angle. I could only see your first jumps ... the ones on the 15-0 pole ... becuz there were 3 people blocking your takeoff on your jumps with the 15-6 pole. But from what I saw, you start out with a fairly good body angle on takeoff ... and then "lose it".

By that I mean that you seem to be swinging too early from your top arm fulcrum ... before you ever reach a good pre-stretch. If you let your chest drive thru more, that will stretch your trail leg back more. When you begin your swing, I think you might even be bending your trail leg at the knee, instead of swinging it downwards and forwards whilst straight.

From there, I see a fairly lackadaisical swing ... lacking energy. If you can get into a really good pre-stretch ... with your muscles "tight" with elasticity and "long" ... and then WHIP out of it, you'll improve the top half of your vault substantially.

Did you notice how your hips don't pass by the rest of your body very quickly on your way to vertical? In fact, there's a distinct PAUSE in your vault ... as you're trying to get your hips up. It should be one continuous motion.

To solve this, you need more body speed in the bottom half of your vault. Starting with the downswing ... which comes from a good elastic pre-stretch, you need to WHIP your trail leg past the chord. If you do this fast enough, you'll have the momentum that you need to carry your hips up ... and pass the flat-back postion in a single frame. And as you're doing that, you'll have the proper body position to EXTEND your legs and hips UP ... using your upswing momentum and your back muscles.

I also notice that you're not landing very deep into the pit. That's not only dangerous, but is also sub-optimal technique. You'll find that if you can land a bit deeper (on a softer pole, shorter grip, faster run, harder takeoff, stronger whip, or some combination of these), then you'll have enough self-confidence that you won't feel the need to PAUSE to give the pole another split second to rotate to vertical. Instead, you'll be able to work harder on the pole, without fear of stalling ... no matter how hard you "work the pole". And your hips will pass the flat-back position without any pause at all.

Lastly, I realize that you just have a bungee up, and you're focussing on the bottom half of your vault, but if I were you I'd try to finish EVERY vault ... assuming that you're aligned with the pole properly ... and get into the habit of making every jump "count".

As I see it, you don't seem to care whether you brush the bungee with your body or not. If that was a bar, you'd try to CLEAR it. Get into the habit of PRETENDING that it's a real bar ... in a real competition ... and make your chest concave, turn your thumbs in and down, and do whatever it takes to avoid brushing the bungee. This should also add a little competitive edge to your practices too ... to avoid "getting sloppy".

Kirk

POST 2……….

One of the first things I did was “listen” to the cadence, since we couldn’t see the run. With so few strides it was difficult to pick up a “cadence” but it did sound slower or should I say none accelerated.

Didn’t plan on turning this thread into a “run” session. But I do feel what is happening in this discussion is very important for everyone on the board to “bare” with me and begin to understand all the post I have made concerning this issue, that of “over striding”.

You posted and asked for an “assessment”. Correct vaulting starts with the run. Without the correct run the “physics” is not there to do all the outer things I or anyone can “assess” is happening in your vault.

Kirk’s assessment is excellent.. but it will be very difficult or can’t be corrected if you don’t “fix” the run.

I want to help you, and every pole vaulter for that matter, be as good as they can be.

I’m hoping this will be a very good teaching/learning moment for all of us. Like I have posted before, I see “over striding” as the number one issue in pole vaulting world wide and although I have tried to correct this issue for 38 !!!! years through camps/clinics, personal coaching and written material, 90% of the vaulters at the Region 3 Jr Olympics were still over striding and taking off under and coaches telling them to “not over stride” into the takeoff … BUT still telling them to move back because they were under without even knowing what there 6 step mark was.

Why I feel you have to be over striding? And this is an assessment of your video and the numbers you gave us along with my experience and “data’ from numerous world class jumpers.

First the “cadence”.. yes it seemed slower.. a sure sign of reaching even if it is only “slight”. A “reached” step cannot get “on and off” the runway fast or correct. When you reach the first “reached” step is a little slower, the next one slower, the next slower.. See the cadence? Not only does the “reach” slow you, it lowers you center of mass making it more difficult to “impulse”/jump at the takeoff.. especially “jump” before the pole tip is in contact with the back of the box. If you do manage to takeoff “free” with little or no “jump” you will put the “force” into the box, sag and over load the pole, slow or stop the penetration, bend and reach back with the take off/ trail leg to try and correct yourself from being thrown onto you back in an effort to make the pit.

Next.. a 55 mid is an indication you are running 9.3 Meters per second.. If you are running 9.3 meters per second your cadence would be accelerated. Also if you were running that fast your grip would/could be 16-4…

A “mid” of 55 and a takeoff of 12 would make your strides over 7 feet each. Just for reference Bubka’s strides on a 6 meter jump were an average of 6’8” with a takeoff of 14’4” and a projected mid of no more than 16.85m(55 feet). Tim Mack had a “mid” of 54-8 and a takeoff of 13-8 a grip of 16-4 when he jumped 5.90 at the trials in 2004. Tim had a very slight stretch on his last step (4 inches) that caused him to “push” the trail leg back, bent at the takeoff in an effort, intuitively, to keep himself “upright” to “roll’ the bending pole toward vertical. Much like a surfer would move the “mass” back on a board to stay on the crest of the wave. Of course to extend the leg back the vaulter must have the "speed transfer" at the takeoff to penetrate. If not you will over bend AND come up short.

Which brings us full circle to the increased cadence, foot stride directly under the mass, so each stride has less “ground’ time which in turn gives you more speed. A seven foot stride with a pole in your hand must be at 9.3 meters per second (give or take a tenth) or you are over striding.

For your vault level right now (hopefully it will be much higher in the future) with a 14-6/14-8 grip you’re “mid” should be at approximately 49-50 feet. By using this “mid” you will learn to “get the feet down” and run correctly, carry the pole correctly with the potential to plant/takeoff correctly.

Remember Form Follows Function… that is why drills such as the 20-20 drill work. They “force” you into the correct posture with a high frequency, no stretch..

but if your "MID" is too far out you will have to stretch... lose speed, posture...etc.

I’m a “percentage” person. Physics works off of percentages. When Earl maximized his vault from a 90% run and 90% grip we knew that when he went to 100% he would/should improve his vault by 18-20 inches. His “MID” went from 50 feet at 90% ...to 53 feet at 100% run. vaulted 16-8/17 from 90% run and 18-2 from a 100% run.

Only by running correctly and building strength can you improve your speed.

Basically any one jumping at your current level knows how to vault. The only way to improve is “speed” and converting that speed at the plant on the right pole with the right grip.

dj

dj wrote: ... Correct vaulting starts with the run. Without the correct run the “physics” is not there to do all the other things I or anyone can “assess” is happening in your vault.

Kirk’s assessment is excellent.. but it will be very difficult or can’t be corrected if you don’t “fix” the run.

I agree with DJ on this. He's the expert on the run, and my expertise is mostly on the bottom half of the vault (takeoff and beyond). But we both agree that almost every flaw in PV technique is based on some other flaw earlier in the vault. It all starts with the pole carry and the first few steps of the run! Trace the ROOT CAUSE of a flaw in the top half of the vault back far enough and you will inevitably discover a flaw ... perhaps one that you never even knew you had ... to the RUN!

I often advise vaulters on PVP to JUMP "properly" on takeoff ... and get into a good pre-stretch before the swing.

However, I know how hard this is to do. It doesn't just happen ... you have to MAKE it happen. This is where DJ's advice comes in. In my career, I didn't have a coach that taught me the 6-step mid mark system. In fact, DJ had not even invented it yet! So I feel that I "lucked out" re my strong takeoff. I happened to do a LOT of short run vaults (9 steps) in my career, and in these short run drills, I mastered the right body angle on takeoff ... taking off about 4" behind my top thumb. So I had a strong takeoff on short runs, and when I went to long runs, I refused to let myself be "under". Thus, I hardly ever stretched on takeoff.

Today, with DJ's ready-made 6-step mid mark system ... which has proven to work over many years by many athletes of every PR level ... you don't have to depend on luck. Just follow his advice, and you'll get that "perfect takeoff".

I'll just comment on some of DJ's sound-bites that I think are worth repeating ...

dj wrote: ... I see “over striding” as the number one issue in pole vaulting world wide ...

Ditto. It's one thing to tell someone that they're overstriding ... or that they're taking off "under", but it's quite difficult to tell them HOW to fix this problem. I think that the 6-step coach's mark is the way to check it ... and maybe even yell at the athlete to stop if it's out by too much. After all, there's no sense in jumping if the jump is already "off" 6 steps back!

I'll tell you how me and my coach solved the problem with overstriding ... and I realize that this is easier said than done. We were VERY disciplined in our approach to making every attempt identical to the previous one, fixing only one problem at a time. Same run, same grip, same takeoff, same technique ... over and over again.

If overstriding was a problem ... and on a few occassions in my career it was ... I would revert back to my short run, and get the "feel" for how to run without overstriding. After all, with just 9 steps, it was hard to be out at the 6-step mark, even tho we never put a check-mark there! (Conversely, if you're overstriding on a run of 4-5 lefts, then how do you expect NOT to overstride with a longer run!? ) Then, once I reminded myself of the "feel" of that cadence, we moved back to the long run ... keeping the exact same tempo. Since we didn't have a 6-step mark, my coach didn't yell at me if I was over-striding midway thru my run. However, I could "feel" it myself. I "knew" when my cadence/tempo ... whatever you want to call it ... was "off". I probably "steered" somewhat, but more often than not ... if I was overstriding (which I could usually "feel") ... I just aborted the attempt.

You have to be especially wary of overstriding when there's a tail wind ... it's so-o-o-o-o tempting!

If I was vaulting today, I would not only rely on this "feel", but I would ALSO rely on the scientific "physics" that DJ has built into his MID MARK CHART, and I would not even attempt to complete a jump if my 6-step mark was "off". It should be so much easier today ... with this more scientific approach.

dj wrote: ... Not only does the “reach” slow you, it lowers you center of mass making it more difficult to “impulse”/jump at the takeoff.. especially “jump” before the pole tip is in contact with the back of the box. If you do manage to takeoff “free” with little or no “jump” you will put the “force” into the box ...

If you're "under", you CANNOT jump vigorously ... without braking. If you're "on" or "out" ... whilst overstriding ... you will be jumping at a sub-optimal angle (less than 19 degrees), and your jump will be "weak". Basically, you'll just be relying on the pole picking you UP ... instead of you helping to raise your mass up and over the bar. But if you're on or out and you DO jump UP, then you'll be braking.

dj wrote: Only by running correctly and building strength can you improve your speed.

Running "correctly" includes running "consistently" ... with the right stride length and frequency ... of course. I don't mean to encourage this but in PV, having a technical flaw in your run, but still running "consistently" with the SAME stride length and frequency is better than having good running "technique" but being inconsistent in your stride length and frequency. But you should strive to fix the technical flaws in your run as well as being consistent.

dj wrote: Basically any one jumping at your current level knows how to vault. The only way to improve is “speed” and converting that speed at the plant on the right pole with the right grip. ...

I wouldn't say the ONLY way ... since you can still MINIMIZE energy loss ... and even ADD energy to the vaulter-pole system AFTER takeoff (by increasing the speed of the downswing and the extension) ... but it's certainly the EASIEST way!

Kirk

Hi! i appreciate all of the advice regarding my run. Here is a video showing my run.
pole- 15'6'' 185.
me- 6'3'' ish 165 lbs
mid is still at 55, and run at 126. step was consistent , take off at about 12'4'' which is about 2'' under. I feel most comfortable at 13', but I only took one jump on this pole.

Riley Crosby wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fxN8KeBw7k

Riley, for your speed, you don't need 8 lefts. Cut back to 6 lefts, and try to accelerate more thru your entire run ... so that you're running at your top controllable speed on takeoff. Then, when you think that you can accelerate even more with a couple more steps (not before), back up to 7 lefts.

You should strive to accelerate thru every step of your run.

If DJ has different advice than this, then I bow to his expertise. I know he will have some specific advice for your re your stride length and frequency (which I've simply summarized into "lack of acceleration").

Kirk

good morning

"Rise and Shine.. it's Pole Vault Time"

outstanding ...

my "thoughts" to take you to a new level, would be .. on the run.. start faster and finish faster..

you have good cadence… it just can be 'reved' up a little..

what this means to me is …

come out of the back with a little more acceleration.. natural of course, based on effort..(85-90%)

go to the track.. lay your run out just like you have it on the runway.. start-mid-takeoff

plant into a towel…

try coming out of the back faster AND increasing the frequency more on the last 6..

keep the marks/mid the same... it may be difficult to hit the 55 with a faster start.. if so move IN a little to match up..

time from left toe to left toe contact for the last 6…

by “coming out of the back” I mean…

toe the mark… get the correct grip.. lift the pole into position.. rock back slightly… lean with the “full body” (not from the waist) and “go”.. right hand at hip.. left hand 10 inches from the sternum… drop the pole “on time’ just like you did in this clip..

once i have established the correct run.. i give the athlete this instruction...

"come out of the back... get your feet down (frquency over the last 4-6) plant big...

this is all they will need to stay focused... they know what each "term" means and feels.

that pole was slightly “stiff” for that speed so you should get another two inches of grip from it with the extra speed you will have from the run…

good luck..

great job..

dj