Let's Talk About The Real Issue!

A forum to discuss everything to do with pole vaulting equipment: poles, pits, spikes, etc.

Moderator: Barto

PV2020
PV Whiz
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:23 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Lázaro Borges

Let's Talk About The Real Issue!

Unread postby PV2020 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:25 pm

When someone comes out with a new product, they test it before it reaches the market. That is they test the product that will be released to the public for a long period of time. A lot of stuff works the first few times, but after 100 times, or 1000 times, or even 10000 times, these things start to fail. You would like to be able to supply some kind of proven warning to go along with your product that lets the person who purchases it know how long it will be good for. This does not have to be an exact science, but most light bulb companies try to leave their light bulb on as long as they can to see how long it will actually last before advertising it as a 5 year bulb.

That being said, when an outside party makes a standard for what a product should be able to do, it is a scientific explanation of how it should behave. They are not even necessarily saying that this is possible, or that such a product even exist. If some company that made generalized standards saying that bullet proof vest must be able to resist 50 Cal rounds from 10 meters, but that product did not actually exist yet, the military would not say: All bullet proof vest must resist 50 Cal rounds by December 1. They would present the standard to the companies who make bullet proof vest and ask them to work hard to make it. These companies may then find a material that resist one 50 cal shot. They would then test this product under lots of different criteria, and once they determined without a shadow of a doubt that it was safer than the old models, they may then require everyone to adapt to this standard.

Why not just require everyone to adapt to the bullet proof vest that can resist one 50 Cal shot right after it is invented? Well what if that bullet proof vest can resist one 50 Cal shot but it is no good after that. What if it the old model can resist a spray of 30 Cal rounds and be good to go for more missions, while this new model can stop a larger round but is no good and leaves the soldier at more risk.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what just happened at the NCAA with box collars.

There were several types of box collars on the market, all of a different variety of size and shape.

The ASTM Comes up with a standard for a box collar, standards for a box collar that had not been invented yet.

The NCAA adapted this standard into rule and said that everyone must have a product that meet the ASTM standard by December 1 OF THAT YEAR. (The official rule was released as defined on March 25, 2013. That is just over 8 months before the product had to be ready for competition.

Manufactures started making modifications to pre-existing products to try and make them ASTM compliant. That is, they changed the foam being used and made whatever modifications they may have made, as well as do testing to see if it meets their interpretation of ASTM standards, and as well as do all "long term" testing, all in less than a year.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does this mean? This means the NCAA required a product to be used during competition by December 1, 2013 that had yet to be invented. The manufacture then rushed into development a product that had not been fully tested. I do not mean the Safety Max, I mean the Safety Max+. Although they are shaped the same their insides are different and and there is no way long term testing has been done on the material inside of them.

Some people may ask, what does it matter? We had old box collars that had no standard and they were not even required. This is still more safe. Pretty much we used to wear a sweater and now we are putting on a bullet proof vest. WRONG!

We used to wear a sweater so we tried our best to stay away from getting shot in the chest! Now someone hands us a bullet proof vest that has not been properly tested and tells you it is OK to shoot yourself in the chest!

Think of all the high school athletes that have the rip it and grip it attitude. The fear of landing in the box may have been enough to keep them from jumping up poles on the last attempt when they already had the standards at 40cm. Now that they have a box collar there 'protecting them' from the edges of the box, they may take that risk. Whats the worst that could happen? The collar will protect them right?

What if the collar protects the first 50 athletes that land on it hard for the first few times, but then the foam is too worn out for the 51st and he gets seriously hurt?

This is why you product test the product you are sending on the market before you send it to the market! And you definitely do it before you make it a RULE!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1969 N0CSAE was created to study football helmets and to come out with a standard they should all follow
In 1973 they produced their first standard as to what football helmets should follow
In 1978 the NCAA adopted the NOCSAE standard

That is a 9 year period from the point at which someone begin to develop the standard to when it was enforced. Do I think it should take almost 10 years for a standard to be implemented? No, but it should definitely not be less than 1 year!

User avatar
VaultPurple
PV Lover
Posts: 1079
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:44 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, College Coach, Pole Vault Addict
Favorite Vaulter: Greg Duplantis
Location: North Carolina

Re: Let's Talk About The Real Issue!

Unread postby VaultPurple » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:52 pm

The real issue is that they are giving us a bullet proof vest and telling us it is good enough to survive a BB gun, and telling our college guys that they can walk through a field of 50 Cal rounds!

The current test are tested for something like 12.5 feet. You may argue that is better than the old standard which was no test at all. But lets be real here, most coaches are smart enough to know that that foam pad around the box is not to be meant as a safety net to test out bigger poles with, but my college guys do not.

I find it pretty comical that the NCAA is looking at a standard that test up to the height of an above average female vaulter when they have guys jumping 6.5 feet higher than that.

I do not normally miss a single jump any of the men I coach take. But not every program is this lucky. What happens when a school that does not have a pole vault coach at every jump has a 'grip it and rip it' vaulter in a meet or practice. The guy that always jumps with the standards between 45-50cm. In his mind as long as he is landing on the mat, the pole is the right size. He barely clears 5.20 on the first try for a new PR. It is a big meet so the bar goes straight to 5.35. When he cleared 5.20 he was already jumping jumping 3 feet over his hand grip, in his mind there is no way he is going to clear 5.35 with that grip! What does a 19 year old kid with no coach standing near him do? Well normally he would think, "well the standards were on 45cm last time, and I don't really want to land in the box, so lets give it a shot with this pole and if I can blow through I will move up poles on the next try". But what does he think now that he has a box covered in ASTM certified padding that will protect him if he comes up short? He grabs the next stiffest pole in his bag and goes up a grip! He already PR'd once today, whats there to lose, GO BIG OR GO HOME!

Well this kid goes up, pikes in front of the cross bar, comes down on his back, and lands in the box. Needless to say the new ASTM certified box collar that is tested from 12.5 feet did nothing for this kid that just slung his center of mass close to 18' in the air...

User avatar
altius
PV Rock Star
Posts: 2425
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:27 am
Location: adelaide, australia
Contact:

Re: Let's Talk About The Real Issue!

Unread postby altius » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:23 pm

"What does a 19 year old kid with no coach standing near him do? Well normally he would think, "well the standards were on 45cm last time, and I don't really want to land in the box, so lets give it a shot with this pole and if I can blow through I will move up poles on the next try". But what does he think now that he has a box covered in ASTM certified padding that will protect him if he comes up short? He grabs the next stiffest pole in his bag and goes up a grip! He already PR'd once today, whats there to lose, GO BIG OR GO HOME!

Well this kid goes up, pikes in front of the cross bar, comes down on his back, and lands in the box. Needless to say the new ASTM certified box collar that is tested from 12.5 feet did nothing for this kid that just slung his center of mass close to 18' in the air..."

Given what I have seen at Reno over the years this analysis is spot on. I think the football helmet issue relates to this because many now believe that the illusion of safety actually leads players to use their heads as battering rams. Hence the large pay out in a recent class action - and this is only the beginning - to players who claim they have suffered permanent brain damage from playing football. Rugby league and rugby union players hit hard but because there are no helmets they tend to look after their heads! I think there is a message here for the pole vault.

As you all know the ONLY solution is to help youngsters - and their coaches - understand that only good technique and sensible decisions will keep them safe.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

trayoates
PV Nerd
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 5:49 pm
Expertise: College (class of 2017)
Lifetime Best: 17'
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Bubka

Re: Let's Talk About The Real Issue!

Unread postby trayoates » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:00 pm

just read through all of this and liked it a lot!! :yes:

Branko720
PV Whiz
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:49 am
Expertise: Club Coach
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Let's Talk About The Real Issue!

Unread postby Branko720 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:52 pm

Not only do I agree with everyone here, but to top it, the new box collars are not available yet. No one can get one to you until November or December the earliest, so this means that many athletes will not have any experience with them until a meet. I don't think it is a great idea for athletes to practice with the box and box collar the way it is, and then get to their first competition and have to get used to having a smaller area to plant into. What sense does that make?

Decamouse
PV Great
Posts: 923
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2002 6:43 pm
Expertise: Masters vaulter, coach, USATF Official
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Kate Dennison
Location: Bohners Lake, Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: Let's Talk About The Real Issue!

Unread postby Decamouse » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:01 pm

Why are they not available -- that should be the bigger question and one the NCAA should also ask -- should have been tested in production -- or is the stuff you see online sales and marketing hype? Or are changes happening to meet the requirements? Or?
Plant like crap sometimes ok most times

User avatar
rainbowgirl28
I'm in Charge
Posts: 30435
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 1:59 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, I coach and officiate as life allows
Lifetime Best: 11'6"
Gender: Female
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Casey Carrigan
Location: A Temperate Island
Contact:

Re: Let's Talk About The Real Issue!

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:14 pm

Branko720 wrote:Not only do I agree with everyone here, but to top it, the new box collars are not available yet. No one can get one to you until November or December the earliest, so this means that many athletes will not have any experience with them until a meet. I don't think it is a great idea for athletes to practice with the box and box collar the way it is, and then get to their first competition and have to get used to having a smaller area to plant into. What sense does that make?


I bought one last spring, did they just sell out?


Return to “Pole Vault - Equipment”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests