Rhythm Run Help

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altius
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Re: Rythm Run (how I failed to teach it) Help

Unread postby altius » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:17 pm

[quote="Tim McMichael"]Here is my take on the difference between the rhythm run and just sprinting as hard as possible the whole way.

I agree with Altius that the Europeans in general use the slow-out-the-back, gradual acceleration method more often than Americans who are more likely to just turn on the afterburners and head toward the box. I am also certain that the rhythm run is a much better technique. ...............................................................................

My question is 'anyone with 2 cents or more to give – how can this be taught? "Unquote.
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Tim - you have just raised a topic which is just as important as both the 'free take off' and the Petrov approach to inversion - unfortunately few people understand how important it is and if the history of PVP is anything to go, by you will be bombarded with ideas and red herrings from folk who have NEVER TAUGHT this approach to the run up and have little or no idea why it is important.

The last time i tried to introduce the notion that running with a pole with the intent of executing an upspringing take off required both a very specific running technique and run up structure, I was roundly abused by teenagers who had never taught anything.

So while I believe i can contribute something to this issue -which is outlined in BTB - I am reluctant to do so in the technique section. If it can be moved to the coaches section where there is a modicum of protection from the instant experts I will be happy to contribute.

However I will point out that Petrov has made teaching Isinbyeva how to run with the pole, the focus of his coaching since she arrived. He is adamant that you must run 'in front of yourself' as Bubka so clearly did throughout his run and is changing Isi to that pattern. Apparently she had done a great deal of vaulting using a downhill runway in training with her original coach and she had developed poor running technique as a result. I saw them in London earlier this year and she has already made marked improvements in this area - and you are right, if she can do this she will be able to ensure a much more efficient take off. :idea: :yes:
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Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:33 pm

It's in the Coaches forum now. Leave the drama elsewhere.

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Unread postby ADTF Academy » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:55 pm

Altius

Do you know if anyone has Issi's speed figures now compared to before she started working with Petrov.

Is the same speed being acheiving at takeoff before as it is now as she makes the transformation.

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Unread postby Tim McMichael » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:55 am

One thing that I have found is that to use a rhythm run you have to have good sprint mechanics with the pole. This is not the same as good mechanics without the pole because the COG of the pole has to be taken into account. (I learned how to articulate this from Altius - credit where credit is due.) This means the athlete is more upright rather than leaned forward. The knees have to be very high and the run at the beginning has to have a slight bounding quality. It looks something like this.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4058406

I think that one of the problems with teaching this is that almost no videos show the back of the run. They begin just before takeoff and omit the essential element of the approach that has put the athlete in the position they are beginning the plant from.

The run and pole carry positions just before the plant determine what kind of takeoff the athlete will execute. At this point they cannot change much of anything. Someone trying to do a free takeoff from a low, leaned back position will find nothing but frustration. It is impossible. It is impossible to have a tall, balanced position at the plant without the right beginning of the approach. The run and plant are a unified whole beginning with the first step.

I’ll take it even further. The entire jump is a unified whole beginning with the athlete placing their hands on the pole before they step on the runway. Careless and improper hand placement and pole position make a correct first step impossible.

The middle and top of the jump are the inevitable result of the forces generated at takeoff. It is all connected.

Watch any video of Lobinger. With that wide grip and low pole carry he has to have a long last step. That puts him under at the takeoff. He compensates for this by collapsing his left arm and turning his shoulders so that the pole is not bent too much as he leaves the ground. Then he drops his right knee to keep his hips from being yanked forward. This keeps him behind the pole and allows him to swing. Everything else follows from this, but it all began with his pole carry.

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Unread postby zipsDIGSpv » Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:33 pm

I agree with all of these things I just want to add to what Tim was saying. I am working with a lot of vaulters who have very litte concept of the rhythm approach and the most effective thing I've found for teaching them is a check step. Two lefts (or rights) into the approach have them hit a check step. With a bounding approach in the back there needs to be consistancy and for a vaulter who has not done it much before the check becomes crucial and keeps that back of the approach consistent. Monitor their check as they become aware of it and move it accordingly. It also helps the vaulter to focus on that part of the approach because I could not agree more with Tim that the back of the approach is crucial in the success of the rest of the vault.

This means the athlete is more upright rather than leaned forward

I have found that many athletes need to still be told to stay forward though. Having them think that they are forward a lot of times will get the vaulter upright, especially a vaulter that has the tendancy to lean back. I tell my vaulters to feel forward from the hips all the way up.

One final thing that will help with a ryhthm approach is having the pole as high as they can in the back and making that pole feel weightless all the way down the runway and through the pole drop. This can only be achieved by accelerating through the approach...a cue for some vaulters that are struggling to find the ryhthm might be to tell them to try to make the pole feel weightless down the runway. Counting down the runway is also a good way to help them find their cadence. If they hear in their mind the slow to quick cadence it will help with a consistant and powerful ryhthm.

The back of the approach cannot be overlooked! It is vital to the success of the rest of the approach and the takeoff.
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Unread postby Tim McMichael » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:23 am

I stand corrected. :) Because of the difficulty of learning to carry and lower the pole correctly most vaulters have far more difficulty with leaning too far back rather than too far forward. The right posture is more upright than a sprinters, but telling an athlete already having problems leaning back to get more upright will wreak havoc.

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Unread postby altius » Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:49 pm

Great post on the 22nd Tim - Are you sure you havent read BTB??? - you took the words right out of my mouth!!! You might find the BTB - DVD interesting because even tho it is pretty amateurish it will confirm your views on the run up -and many other elements of technique I hope. It shows Bubka's full run - so anyone who understands what they are looking at, will immediately recognise the issues being discussed here.

Folk who believe that he put his foot down under the centre of mass in his run up will also find the images revealing - IF they look at them objectively.

Re athletes leaning back - I suspect that teaching them how to carry the pole properly will have a greater impact on their running posture than any instructions to stay tall and not lean back - or telling them to lean forward in the hope that they will get it right. :idea: :devil:
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Unread postby zipsDIGSpv » Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:39 pm

I stand corrected. Because of the difficulty of learning to carry and lower the pole correctly most vaulters have far more difficulty with leaning too far back rather than too far forward. The right posture is more upright than a sprinters, but telling an athlete already having problems leaning back to get more upright will wreak havoc.


wasn't correcting just adding for coaches that are just learning...Tim you make some great points and as important the plant and take-off are, without things happening in the back of the approach and having ryhthm to the approach there will be serious problems. Good stuff Tim
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Unread postby vaultman18 » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:54 am

With this running style will it require a longer run like 8 lefts instead of 7?
The reason I ask I was working with one of my vaulters a couple of weeks ago and I had her really make an effort to run this way and she seemed to do it pretty well but she started stalling out very badly. (Note we have been doing the running drills as prescribed in BTB 20/20's, osterage spelling? ) She was hitting her mid and take off correctly.

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Unread postby altius » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:42 pm

Good question. We found that it was easier to get the rhythm right from 16 rather than 12 or 14 steps - the 10/6 pattern seems to suit the acceleration patterns of most athletes.

However in Formia recently Dima, Robbie Pratt and Viva Zapata did most of their jumping with Vitali from 14 and had no problems. It may just be a matter of more time and practice for your young lady.

Remember that 20/20s are an exageration drill - designed to help athletes eliminate overstriding from 6 steps out and into the take off. Once they have learnt to control those steps it is important to make sure that the athlete does not chop in that phase, as this will cause them to slow down fractionally. Without confusing the issue with a great deal of unnecessary data I suggest that with a 16 step run the 11/12/13th steps are all the same length as the 10th. In this way the athlete can maintain their surge towards the box without the overstriding problem which will often leave them off balance and kill their take off - often by running them under.

Re Yelena's speed parameters with Vitali - he is more concerned with HOW she runs and HOW she hits the pole at take off - than HOW FAST she runs. He is happy that around 8.4m/sec can allow her to get the job done. :idea: :yes:
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Unread postby vaultman18 » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:51 pm

Thanks Alan we will keep working on it.

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Unread postby Carolina21 » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:55 pm

I have an athlete who I starting to learn the rhythm run for the first time. He has never been past 6 lefts except maybe once and as we attempt to move to 7 and 8 lefts with pole runs there has been some struggle to adapt to a proper acceleration, much as Tim has described. I feel we are making good progress as we do more and more pole runs and he is starting to feel more comfortable with a longer approach and the proper acceleration pattern to go with it; however, as we improve this part of the run the athlete has increasing problems executing a penultimate stride and taking off properly at the end of his run. He already struggles with the take off in practice when he jumps from short run and the longer approach only magnifies the problem. His last two strides consist of a slightly shorter stride followed by a longer reaching stride, basically the opposite of what we want. It is creating a late take off and making a free takeoff nearly impossible to achieve.

Eventually we want to move the long run from the track to the runway, but I am afraid right now doing that will only create more problems than the extra speed gained would help.

What are some good ways to help an athlete continue to execute and improve their set-up and penultimate into the take off while they are increasing their speed at the end of a longer approach? I think some advice would be helpful for vaulters of all levels, I know I have always found a big free take off to be a lot easier from short run than long run.
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