Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby achtungpv » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:28 am

altius wrote:Did the folk who knew all this stuff not feel it worthwhile to share it???


I don't think no one knew the right direction but it comes down to commitment. Not saying no one today is committed but the Petrov-Bubka duo's commitment to perfection is unprecedented. Bubka began training with Petrov at age 10. He left home a couple of years later to move to Donetsk when Petrov moved there to start coaching. That's why his older brother started vaulting...their parents didn't want a preteen living on his own so he was sent with him. Bubka spent 20+ years perfecting the simple drills that after tens of thousands of repetitions got him closer to perfection. They never looked for the next quick fix, never settled for the idea that any minute aspect of the vault was "good enough", never ever deviated from the technical model they sought to perfect, and never relied on athleticism as a fix for technical deficiencies. There are very few opportunities for vaulters today to commit on the level they did since the athletic support systems just don't exist like they used to. Parnov-Hooker have a lot of the same pieces, are the closest to this level, and the results show.
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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby polevaulter08nw » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:36 am

[quote="VTechVaulter"]i dont think people have an anti-bubka agenda.[quote="VTechVaulter"]

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:11 pm

Altius, you brought up a lot of different points in your last post. On one level, I know you're just being sarcastic ... but on another level, you really mean what you say ... or what you ask. In every sarcastic remark that ANYONE makes, there's a hint of reality. So I'll assume that you really do want answers to your questions.

You asked for proof of Bubka volzing ... you got proof of Bubka volzing. You asked for proof of athletes who jumped like Bubka before Bubka ... you got proof of athletes who jumped like Bubka before Bubka (the Isaksson vid in the last post).

altius wrote: ... So to summarise what seems to be a common feeling on this board ...


You can exclude me from your generalizations of "feelings on this board". I'm not speaking for anyone but myself ... so be careful not to also assume that this reply is "generic".

I do NOT think that Bubka had a competitive advantage becuz he set his WRs before volzing was banned ... or becuz he used long pegs ... or becuz of the time allowed for each jump ... or becuz he used drugs. People that think that are just a bunch of sour grapes. :no:

I do NOT think he used drugs ... altho I have no idea ... so I assume innocence.

I DO think that he was an EXCEPTIONAL athlete in every sense of the word EXCEPTIONAL ... he was an exceptional sprinter and long jumper, and he had the good fortune to be trained by Petrov from an early age. But more than anything, I think Bubka had the mental toughness and the will to win that most mere mortals lack.

And I DO think that Petrov learned all he could from his fellow Russians, from the Germans, from the French, from the Americans, and from the Swedes. He put this all together into what is now known as the Petrov Model.

To take the high pole carry as a prime example ... Petrov and Bubka did not INVENT that technique ... Isaksson did ... Petrov and Bubka just POPULARIZED it. This fact is irrevocable! If you cannot see this, then there's nothing more that I can say to convince you. You need only to look at Isaksson's vids, and realize that he had a high pole carry in the late 1960s. The vid in this thread does not show his full run, so it's not the vid I'm referring to. Actually, you do not even need a vid for proof of such a simple technique. You only need to listen to American and Swedish PV fans, coaches, and fellow athletes who have TOLD you ... repeatedly ... that Isaksson gets credit as the inventor of the high pole carry. There's even a CANADIAN :D that has told you this ... REPEATEDLY. Why would you doubt such a thing? It's COMMON KNOWLEDGE!

You've often asked for proof of someone doing a free takeoff before Bubka. If Isaksson's takeoff in the vid ON THIS THREAD is not a free takeoff, then I don't know what I can tell you ... or show you! This was a WR jump ... not sure which one. But all his WRs were in 1971-72, so the concept of a free takeoff existed at least by then ... 10-15 years BEFORE Bubka! What more proof are you asking for? :confused:

altius wrote: Then it would appear that he really did not introduce anything new with his Petrov model. He just confirmed what folk in Canada and the USA were already doing in the 70s. Right?? Strange thing is that we can find film of him voltzing - and there is no doubt he did on that occasion -but we can never find any film to justify the claims that are made repeatedly of athletes who jumped like Bubka before Bubka. Where is the evidence of all of these jumpers using a Petrov model before Petrov -they must be there - i just wish i could see them.

Again ... Isaksson's vids are indisputable. If I had vids of myself, then you KNOW that I would have posted them by now. I posted the only still pics I have ... and I have described my Bryde Bend at length. Why do you still question this? Do you REALLY think that I could just watch Bubka vids and then just SAY that that's how I jumped? :confused:

My DEEP understanding of what a Petrov Model jump FEELS like is based 100% on my personal experience in 1971-72 as a vaulter. I did NOT learn the Petrov Model from a book ... in fact, I never read BTB2 until AFTER I posted my Bryde Bend thread.

Almost 100% of my posts are from the viewpoint of the "feeling" that I felt when I vaulted in 1971-72. I did not learn ANYTHING about PV technique between 1975 and 2005 (or so). Short of a couple still pics in newspapers of Bubka setting WRs ... and a couple Canadian meets, I did not even watch any vaulters in that 30 year span! When I posted the Bryde Bend thread, I was going entirely by memory of my technique from the 1970s. Short of posting vids, I think I've been fairly clear and accurate about how I jumped back then.

altius wrote: I also wonder why the Canadian record is only 5.61 ...

If that's a serious question, then I'll give you a serious answer. It's becuz Canada has 10% of the population of the USA, and to break the Canadian record, you need to attend an American university. The support system for a 5.80+ Canadian vaulter just doesn't exist in Canada. Also, most good Canadian athletes take the hockey route to riches and stardom.

altius wrote: Did the folk who knew all this stuff not feel it worthwhile to share it???

If you're asking why I didn't become a Canadian PV coach ... the answer is that I did for a couple years after university. I conducted a couple (maybe 3) PV coaching clinics around British Columbia ... and then retired from active coaching in about 1975. Why? Becuz coaching was a 100% voluntary position, I was married and started a young family, I had to earn a living, and I found other interests ... like basketball and skiing ... that I enjoyed more than coaching PV. When my kids were growing up, my time was spent at lacrosse rinks, soccer fields, basketball courts, and on the ski hills. When my youngest son became a teenager, I spent a lot of time in the gym ... supporting his trampoline career. Quite frankly, if anyone had ever asked, I would have been happy to share my knowledge.

Until about 2005, I had no idea that my technique was similar to Bubka's. My communications with Pat Licari re Brad Walker were the first that I discovered what modern techniques were in existence ... and how my technique compared to others. After that, it was only after YOU posed the question ... re "Bubka before Bubka" ... that I realized the similarities in our techniques. Thus the Bryde Bend thread ... with excerpts of my emails to Licari. Indisputable. Irrevocable.

altius wrote: But clearly some of you folk have been keeping all this good stuff to yourselves. Not very professional of you.

I think we ALL need to keep our professional heads held high ... and not stoop to in-fighting. After all, we all have a common love of the sport of pole vaulting ... we're ALL in this together! :yes:

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:37 pm

Yeesh, I am sorry I brought drugs up at all. It was never about whether or not Bubka used drugs, I was just listing the many changes that have occurred in the sport since Bubka was jumping well.

At the time of the change to short pegs, many vaulters felt that the records should start over, the same as they do in the javelin when they make fundamental changes to the event.

I DO think that Bubka had better technique than anyone else, even today. I do think that current pole vaulters need to continue to strive to have technique as good as Bubka's.

But overall, I do believe that the wide range of changes within the event, with the entire sport of T&F, and within most cultures, has made new records more difficult. If Bubka was competing today with the current rules, I still think he would be the best. I am not sure if he would have made it to 6.15, only because he would have had more meets where he went out at a lower height, but like I said before, perhaps he would have had more motivation to take chances and jump even higher.

It is overly simplistic for Bubka to say that vaulters today are not jumping as high as he did because of technique. However, technique is the one variable in this equation that today's athletes can control, so it is certainly what most focus on. It's difficult to say how well the article is expressing his actual opinion on the matter. But considering how he supported many of these changes within the event, I think it would be difficult for him to admit publicly that those changes made the event harder.

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Re: Buka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby PVstudent » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:27 pm

IAAF biography of Bubka’s pole vaulting career shows that his first registered appearance in a competition was as a 17 year old in Sochi (1980) where he recorded an officially recognized height of 5.10m. His final year of competition was 2000 with a best performance of 5.55m. Quite ordinary performances, one might think, for someone to have the temerity to make remarks on the relatively poor technique used by recent world standard male pole vaulters!

However in the intervening 20 year period the IAAF records show that Bubka jumped heights equal to or greater than 6.00m 27 times.

Starting in 1983 Bubka won the IAAF World Championship 6 times consecutively. His 6th title was won in 1997 (Athens) with a clearance of 6.01m.

His World Records of 6.14m in 1994 (Outdoor) and 6.15m in 1993 (Indoor) have stood the test of time and in this year 2010 still appear beyond the capacity of current pole vaulters.

Bubka’s performance records were achieved in the arena against the best opponents of the day whilst under the scrutiny of the officials. These performances widely observed by television and stadium audiences were, so far as can be ascertained or observed, achieved fairly and without cheating.

The development of modern pole performance technology it could be argued gives vaulter's today some technical advantages over the vaulters of the 1980's and 1990's. Pole customisation for world class performers is not unheard of. Rules have been relaxed with respect to the grip bindings on the pole.

I dont deny that the peg lengths are shorter. I can't argue that this does not require technical precision and reliable bar clearance technique. Bar clearance without bar contact is placing stricter technical demands on vaulters, no doubt. The rule change with respect to use of hands has seen the demise of "Volzing" after the fiasco of the 1999 World Indoor Championships in Maebashi. Use of the hand/s to assist with bar clearance was a form of cheating in my view.

Who better than Bubka to make an assessment of modern vaulters and the technical merit of their performances?

I will be overjoyed if a new world record is established in men’s pole vault soon.

However I view Bubka’s comment as a challenge to vaulters of the 21st century to get their technical act together and get on with the job of eclipsing his formidable legacy.

Height of 6.16m in 2010… mmmnn, in my dreams I see a red haired flying kangaroo , soaring up and over! Alas, I wake up and Hooker is still millimeter by millimeter laboring away towards 6.10m.
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Re: Buka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby Lax PV » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:19 pm

PVstudent wrote:Alas, I wake up and Hooker is still millimeter by millimeter laboring away towards 6.10m.


Lets not forget Bubka jumped 6.00m in June of 1985, and he didn't jump 610 until March of 1991. He then jumped 615 in February of 1993 (and then 614 in June of 1994...which I admit is news to me, I thought he made the 614 bar first...oh well...).

Anyways, Hooker jumped 600 in 2008... not that I don't think you are giving it to him, but I think we all need to give him a little bit of time...

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby altius » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:31 pm

Spot on achtung as usual -it is an issue looked at a few weeks ago and is a critical problem for the US at the moment.

And yes folks I did know about Kjell. Petrov mentions him along with Warmerdam of course as an influence, But no one mentioned Slusaski who was very Bubka like in that he had a completely free take off. But the fact is that neither is Canadian or American - and that is the evidence I am looking for, to support claims that have been made on pvp for ever.

As to Canada not producing pole vaulters because it only has a small population, the kids prefer ice hockey and the US colleges are close. Well I doubt it has a smaller population than OZ which is the most sports crazy country on the planet -finishing fifth on the medal table in 2008 (by one bronze to Britain), which is thousands of miles from anywhere and where track and field is rarely mentioned in the media. This includes Hooker who has had relatively little coverage. We have very few vaulters BUT our coaches have taken up the Russian model; as a result we have had three six metre vaulters in the past six years. Yes I know Dima was a ringin but I think his pr was 5.70/80 when he arrived. We have won WJ and WY titles and I believe had the world leading junior last year. That said our ranks are very thin - a situation that is unlikely to improve despite Steve's success.

Incidentally I would have thought that proximity to US colleges would be a benefit. Certainly hundreds of our basketball players and not a few athletes are over there taking advantage of the opportunities . Simon Arkell left here as an average talent - after average coaching - and made the most of his opportunity at New Mexico to eventually get to 5.80.

I will leave this now but anytime I find anybody demeaning - slandering - Sergey Bubka in any way I shall return. He was an outstanding athlete and he is a good man who deserves better from a community that claims to value pole vaulting. I know that many of you also believe this and I trust you will slap down any of these characters who come out of their holes to make snide remarks about him.
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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:38 am

altius wrote: ... the fact is that neither is Canadian or American - and that is the evidence I am looking for, to support claims that have been made on pvp for ever.

As to Canada not producing pole vaulters because it only has a small population, ...

I think we need to just let this one go. I responded to your remarks about Canada's low national record ... but I'm not defending it in the least. I'm rather embarassed by our poor showing compared to most other countries ... and I only offered what little I could as an explanation. We did pretty well in the 2010 Winter Olympics ... not just hockey ... and clearly Canada's priorities are in the winter sports. I don't like it, but athletics (track & field) in general ... and PV in particular ... just aren't very popular sports in Canada.

Short of a free trip to Munich, I never got a single dime from my beloved country in support in my short time on the PV scene. I was basically funded by the UW ... and myself. Yes, I could have given my free time to coach, but with no system to support PV ... and no financial incentives whatsoever ... and no indoor facility in Vancouver ... there was really no opportunity or motivation. We did import a number of Jamaican "ringers" for the sprints ... thus we've done comparatively well there ... if only they were all clean :mad: ... but it's a lot easier to grow a sprinter in Toronto than a vaulter ... especially if you import the raw talent.

I continue to be amazed to this day that things aren't much better now than they were 30 years ago. I'm aware of one very good indoor facility with good coaching in Saskatoon ... home of Kelsie Hendry ... but not much else anywhere else. Oh well.

So don't hold your breath expecting a Canuck over 5.80 anytime soon ... our best this year so far is Jason Wurster ... at 5.40. He appears to have recovered 100% now from his unfortunate fall into the box in 2008, and is on his way to 5.50+ ... hopefully this year ... which is very good for this side of the border! Other than him, it's a sparse field in Canada ... compared to all the 5.80+ vaulters in the rest of the world.

Re my own personal experience with the Petrov Model ... Bubka before Bubka ... I've documented it the best I could over the past 2 years ... here: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15483

So if you don't believe any of my posts, I can't do much more to convince you. If you want video proof, you won't get it ... but if you're willing to accept the honesty and accuracy by which I described my Bryde Bend, then it's there in black and white. Take it or leave it ... it's well-documented here on PVP.

I'm not the best person to defend the USA re their current "rebuilding year" ... but in the early 1970s, I competed with Dave Roberts ... who had Bubka-like technique ... including a high plant, a free takeoff, no push with the bottom arm, and no tuck ... and I did come across a vid of Mike Tully (1977-1988) that I'll post shortly. His vid is living proof of at least one American "Bubka before Bubka" ... two if you include Roberts.

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:37 am

Here's a vid of Mike Tulley in 1984 ... showing a very nice free takeoff, and a continuous motion thru his entire swing. Very Bubka-like, don't you think? :idea:

http://www.treemo.com/users/KirkB/channel/item/1008280/

I never knew Tulley, and only saw one other vid of him before this one. I posted it on Feb 8, 2009 on this thread: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15961&p=121347&hilit=tulley#p121347.

For those like me that didn't know of Tulley's superb career ... here's some highlights ... compliments of "Who's Who in PV III" (Gerard Dumas).

Coached by Tom Tellez at UCLA 1975-78 ... set 2 World Jr. Outdoor records in 1975 with 5.41 and 5.43. Won the US Championships in 1977, 79, and 86. Won the NCAA in 78. Competed in 4 Olympics. 2nd in 1980, 1st in 84, NH in 88 and 92, winning Silver in 84. Held 2 indoor WRs in 1978 - 5.59 and 5.62. Got an outdoor "best" in 1978 with 5.71, but the bard was accidentally knocked off before being measured. Jumped 5.66 in 1992 at age 36. 23rd man to reach 18-0 (1977), and 8th to reach 19-0 (1984).

His best years in the world rankings were 1977 (1st 5.60), 1978 (1st 5.71), 1979 (9th 5.56), 1980 (10th 5.65), 1982 (14th 5.60), 1984 (4th 5.82), 1985 (6th 5.80), 1986 (7th 5.80), 1987 (5th 5.83), and 1988 (8th 5.84).

Even tho I never knew Tulley, there is a very strong connection between how he vaulted and how I vaulted. Why? It wasn't just coincidence ... it was becuz of our coaching lineage. Tom Tellez was the coach of UCLA back in the 1960s, when Ken Shannon was his assistant coach - specializing in the field events. Shannon coached Marc Savage to an NCAA Div I Championship at Oxy before being hired by Tellez at UCLA. There, they coached a number of very successful vaulters, such as Jon Vaugh (5.31 ranked 7th in the world in 1968 and NCAA Champ), Dick Railsback (5.40 ranked 3rd in the world in 1969), and Rick Sloan (5.18).

Shannon brought vids of these 3 to U Wash, where we studied them intensely ... especially Vaughn's. At UW, Shannon coached myself (1971 5.28 9th in world; 1972 5.34 12th in world) and Jeff Taylor (1978 5.55 8th in world). Taylor was a freshman when I was a senior. I don't have any vids of Taylor either ... but I can assure you that he had a free takeoff ... didn't push with his bottom arm ... and didn't tuck.

I'm leaving out Casey Carrigan in this mix ... mainly due to lack of details ... but straight out of HS in 1968, he was coached by Railsback and Tellez in the 1968 Olympic Trials ... and from what I recall ... when I competed against him in 1971 ... he also had a free takeoff and a continuous motion swing ... with no tuck. Again ... no vids.

So thru this coaching lineage, it should not be too surprising that both myself and Tulley looked like "Bubka before Bubka". I should also add that Kjell Isaksson and Hans Lagerqvist (Sweden) trained at UCLA, so Tellez would have contributed to Isaksson's technique, and Isaksson would have influenced Tellez and the UCLA boys. For more info about that connection, read what "stavhoppare" (Railsback) had to say about it here ... http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=17391&p=125030&hilit=kjell+isaksson+Hans+Lagerqvist#p125030. In that thread, Railsback makes the bold statement that the 4 major milestones in the History of the PV were:
1. Fiberglass poles
2. Foam pits and Tartan Runways
3. KJELL ISACKSONS PLANT AND TAKEOFF
4. BUBKA

In that post, you will also notice Railsback's "learned and understood the "coaches checkmark". Six steps out....." ... by DJ. And if I recall, DJ also coached Tulley for a number of years.

So do you see how this is all inter-connected ... long before Petrov and Bubka POPULARIZED the Petrov Model?

All in all, I think this is quite convincing evidentiary proof of "Bubka before "Bubka". :idea: Don't you agree?

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:42 am

KB, Wurster went 5.50 this year.

I am sure that it hurts Canadian athletes quite a bit that they get so little international experience. Athletics Canada only sends them to big meets if they think they are a good medal threat. The young guys don't get the experience they need to actually medal when they get better, and it seems to be pretty discouraging to hit the A standard multiple times and told you can't go because you didn't do it on enough continents or within three different time frames or whatever. I don't know any other country so ridiculous about team selection.

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby Pogo Stick » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:37 pm

KirkB wrote:Competed in 4 Olympics. 2nd in 1980, 1st in 84, NH in 88 and 92, winning Silver in 84

Something is wrong with his participation at OG. There is no way Tully competed in Moscow 1980 due to US boycott. For 88 and 92 I cannot swear, but I don't see him on the list of participants:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_1988_Summer_Olympics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_pole_vault
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_1992_Summer_Olympics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_pole_vault
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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby altius » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:12 pm

I am convinced - the clip shows Tully jumping like Bubka before Bubka! No doubt about it. Now all we need is Bryde jumping like Bubka and we have it made - but I will take your word for it. It is weird tho because when I was trying to sort the vault out back in the late seventies and early eighties I watched film of every jumper I could get hold of - including Tully but never saw anyone jump like the clip shows. I also watched him win silver in LA and again never saw a jump like that - but clearly I didnt know what I was seeing.

What bothers me is that if Tully was jumping like that with great success why did he not become the model for all US vaulters?? Since athletes and coaches tend to follow the superstar it would seem that would have been logical - especially as he was an American (It is pretty clear that because Bubka was seen to be a Russian communist -------- there was some resistance to taking up his model). Also, were there no bio mechanists around to analyse what Tully was doing and to clarify his model and to show it was better than the usual rubbish that still persists -taking off under/bigbend before you leave the ground? Perhaps what was needed at that time was "From beginner to the Bryde bend" or from "Toddler to Tully"?????? Would have saved a lot of bother, millions of words on PVP and perhaps even a couple of lives.

Dont think one should take much notice of the Winter Olympics - even Australia- a country that is 90% desert won two gold medals!!!

Finally the last of the humble pie has run out. My wife refuses to bake another one because she says it makes me both constipated and crotchety, She is also fed up with me wasting my time dealing with wackos (her words not mine) so I have been ordered to get on with ploughing the back forty and painting the barn. Anyway it is clear that I do not know enough about this event to contribute further. I know I have tried to quit in the past but this time I am seeking treatment - anyone know where Tiger went to be cured? Enjoy and have a great day.
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