Speed or Strength?

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
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achtungpv
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Unread postby achtungpv » Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:06 am

master wrote:

If this is true, please explain how a gymnast can jump up and grab a horizontal bar, lift his feet in front of him to start a small swing and then with each successive swing go higher until he can go over the top. It seems obvious to me the energy to get his body over the top resulted from the proper execution and timing of a good whip-swing (one legged or two).

- master[/quote]

You explained it yourself. You can't swing to the top from a dead hang. You must generate momentum from pulling the legs up and (using that energy/momentum) to start rocking back and forth to build to the point you have energy to use for a swing.
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Unread postby PVstudent » Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:42 pm

Achtungpv Is Correct.

The gymnast swings back and forth to generate the energy required to swing to handstand above the bar.

From a stationary hang below the bar it is impossible to get to that handstand without the gymnast doing useful mechanical work by using muscle effort. This enegy input source is the means whereby the gymnast can do the work against gravity and the friction forces between hands and the bar.

A rapid flexion action at the hip accompanied simultaneously by shoulder girdle depression,shoulder extension and some elbow flexion occur as the gymnast exerts a downwardly(towards the ground) directed pull impulse against the bar. This initiates upwards and forward (direction gymnast is facing) rotation of the gymast about the bar. Gravity quickly stops this rotation and creates a torque that drives the gymnast to rotate around the bar in the opposite direction. The gymnast ACTIVELY uses muscle recruitment to assist this rotation until the peak of the back swing rotation ceases.

Due to this work done by gravity and the gymnast, the gymnast's centre of mass is higher above the ground than on the previous forward swing.
The gymnast has gained some potential energy at this time. Gravity torque reverses the direction of rotation and the gymnast swings forward. As the gymnast passes underneath the bar massive muscular effort is again exerted as the lower limbs are swept vigorously forward and upwards in a scooping action.

This forward and backward swinging rotation about the bar axis is repeated until there is sufficient energy to enable the gymnast to exploit the conservation of angular momentum law on a forward swing by shortening the radius of gyration and thereby increasing angular velocity. If the magnitude of the angular velocity is sufficient and the timing of the reduction in radius of gyration is appropriate the gymnast rotates into a hanstand position vertically above the bar.

In the pole vault pole support phase the vaulter must perform propulsive muscular work to assist and resist gravitational torques in particular. Also the timing of the change in radius of gyration and consequent conservation of angular momentum has to be appropriately timed to maintain pole penetration and vaulter rotational kinetic energy.

How this is done by the vaulter continues to be a matter of debate but the basic mechanics to be employed rely essentially on the vaulter working continuously thoughout the pole support phase of the vault.
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Unread postby master » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:08 pm

So perhaps I don't understand what you are saying. I thought you said that the swing does not add any energy to the vault? Am I wrong in that thought?

In the model of vaulting I am trying to learn and perform, the vaulter takes off with a strong drive knee and the take off foot is left back momentarily as the toe comes off the runway. The body has momentum from the run. The top hand takes the load of the pole hitting the back of the box and (even with the pole bending) it does not penetrate as fast as the chest does, resulting in the classic "C" position of the vaulter's body. This is an ideal setup for a powerful whipping swing of the trail leg forward. Or, the vaulter can have a more passive swing, which will still occur naturally because the body still has momentum and the top hand is what is resisting that forward momentum. The difference to me is obvious. The passive swing adds no more energy to the vault where as the active whip swing does add energy to the vault the same way the gymnast adds energy on the "downswing" of his swing to go over the top. That's all I'm trying to express. Does that make sense?

- master

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Unread postby fx » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:44 pm

makes a lot of sense. In fact this is exactly what I was going to bring up. If the swing in fact adds no energy and is only useful in conserving energy then all that matters is getting from the extended takeoff position to the inverted position, where the energy can be returned, and it does not matter whether the trail leg is long or not. However, since based on common consensus the long trail leg matters so much, i'm going to say that the swing does add energy.

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Unread postby blakedow » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:23 am

fx wrote:makes a lot of sense. In fact this is exactly what I was going to bring up. If the swing in fact adds no energy and is only useful in conserving energy then all that matters is getting from the extended takeoff position to the inverted position, where the energy can be returned, and it does not matter whether the trail leg is long or not. However, since based on common consensus the long trail leg matters so much, i'm going to say that the swing does add energy.


Good point... However, The idea is that you want your entire body to be rigid so that there is no slack in your vault... If and when slack occurs, there is a loss of energy, especially when you come off the ground, when all your momentum is being transferred into energy in your vault... Hence the importance of a long trail leg, all the way through the swing...
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And thus...

Unread postby baggettpv » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:58 am

So as I have said. The act of the free hip circle to a handstand is an important ability to have...
I am going to do a coaches only clinic in Sept. at my place in Oregon City to highlight the sequencing and technical aspects of gymnastics in Pole vaulting. Sat and Sunday morning only. One time shot. Plus how to contact the local Gymnastics club in your area (How to make them more money!).
I can talk way more on this subject...but not now.

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Unread postby PVstudent » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:48 am

Because I am in a land far away, in another galaxy almost, I am disappointed I will miss Coach Baggett's clinic on gymnastics sequencing for pole vaulter.

The clear hip circle to handstand is even more relevant for pole vaulting than giant circles backwards. The timing and musculoskeletal cordination it develops I believe transfers extremely well to pole vault.

Clear hip circles to handstand establishes in particular, the trunk towards arm closure (reversal of normal anatomical action (Origin to Insertion) of the the usual shoulder joint extensor muscle in bringing the "dish" shaped body to the bar).

Similarly the trunk movement away from the bar by reversed action of the shoulder flexors along with shoulder girdle elevator muscles in driving into the handstand is also learned in performing the clear hip to handstand.

When there is powerful work done by the performer in the clear hip circle to handstand the horizontal bar bends upwards as the performer passes over the bar in the "dished" (not hollow backed posture) extended handstand body posture.

The clear hip circle teaches the timing of the "shoulder drop" and "hip drive" upward and back that the vaulter needs to complete the inversion in the pole support second phase of a vault.

Because of the amplitude and dynamic nature of the swing this technique develops the vaulter's work on the pole is enhanced ie the vaulter is able to supply energy through muscular effort through a longer displacement and time.

That is to say the more energy input the greater the chance of getting more of that energy back from the pole as kinetic energy in the vaulter at the pole release.

The clinic should be awesome. All serious vaulters who want to develop their technique in the pole support phase will be rewarded by their experiences. :)
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Unread postby dj » Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:05 am

good morning

i posted this on Manifesto a few days ago .. sorry to "double" post but it seems to be relative here...

a precise, fast rythmic approach run... a high extened arm(both) plant/knee drive... and a free hip into a handstand/"wrap' of the pole ... is all i have been able to teach in a vaulters career.. and even some of that didn't quite get accomplished...

dj
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:24 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

good morning

well said tim...

and this action adds "speed' and force to the swing.. if the vaulter stays extended
through the arms.. you can actually see bubka's, t-macks and others vaulters poles
"come-over" ,bend slightly at the top when this happens..

once the vaulters body reaches horizontal to the ground.. the pole is going to "unload".
.the vaulter needs/must be in position to go as vertical as possible... shortening the
radius while keeping the arms extended can help this.. continuing to bring the knees toward the
elbows/handgrip appears to be how even bubka does it...

but i have found a difference in how it is done with tuck vaulters and what we call
swing vaulters..

tuck vaulters, going all the way back to the french, tend to stop the swing from the
shoulders which creates a break in the application of force, which will slow the pole
penetration, which makes them inconsistant... and they end up "stuck" balled up
under the pole and can't catch the pole to finish..

jeff hartwig is possibly the best "tuck" vaulter ever for his size.. and i have looked
at good verses bad... the same with french vaulter t-vignerion.. both these vaulters
"moved through what we consider the "tuck" phase faster on good jumps..

and to cut this short and explain, here is the key point.. on the better jumps by all
these vaulters, t-mack, bubka..etc.. there was an increase in the speed of the swing
"rotation" and... and when the vaulter arrived at the inverted position the hips were
high... in other words instead of coming back with the top hand to the shins or knees
the top hand came to the thigh/groin...

this help the vaulter stay closer to the "cord" of the pole and "go through" the position
rick explains that is achieved in the "free hip" move on a high bar..

hope this mnakes sense.. this move, and you see it on t-macks jumps... and i will say it
again, is as good as it gets, and he pracitcices that with a drill called a "superman'

mike tully was just putting that into his vaults in 1987/88 and it helped him jump 19'
regardless of the conditions, his speed or fitness level of the day...

take care

dj
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Unread postby AVC Coach » Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:49 pm

So back to the original debate......I'm not sure if Coke beat Pepsi in that taste test or not.

Seriously though, we all have some great ideas and it doesn't seem like each half is going to agree on this energy addition issue. What we believe is simply what we percieve is actually happening, and we can't fault eachother for that.

Increased strength, speed and flexibility play a huge role in progression along with an understanding between an athlete and coach on what they are trying to accomplish. If you think rubbing the head of a Buda doll makes you jump higher, then by all means, rub it.

This arguement has broken my will to live. Good luck!

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Unread postby dj » Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:32 pm

hello

on a high bar the athlete has to "swing back and forth" to generate momentum to swing into a handstand...

in pole vaulting you have to "convert" the horizontal speed/force gained from the run into "momentum" to bend the pole "and" to have enough left over to swing to vertical...

i think where the "confusion" comes from is ... we have two distinct thoughts on how "height above grip" is gained..

1... from a fast accelerated swing........like a gaint high bar swing??

or

2... from the "catapulting" of the pole???


answer this question and you will know if "you think" it is speed or strength...

dj
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Unread postby PVstudent » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:56 am

In the study by: Arampatzis A., Schade F., Bruggemann G-P. (2004) Effect of the pole-human interaction on pole vaulting performance. Journal of Biomechanics, Vol 37, pp. 1353 - 1360. Figure five clearly shows that in both male and female pole vaulters it is clearly possible to add additional energy to the vault in the inversion (Pole Support Phase Two).

I would like to include that figure here but I don't know how to get the JPEG image to paste into my reply.

Gymnasts and some pole vaulters have known and accepted this idea that the muscular work performed by the vaulter in executing a whole body inversion from beneath a bar or laterally flexed (pole swinging laterally) pole does add energy to the system.

In response to Master's question I am advocating:

(1) a whip kick swing from the C posture as being fundamental to adding this energy and the movement of the chest and head upwards and forwards under the bottom grip hand is ACTIVELY executed. At no time after the toe tip leaves the ground is the vaulter passive. The vaulter performs continuous muscular effort and work from takeoff toe tip leaving the ground until the bar is cleared!

(2) the swing is continued not by flexing at the hip but by rolling the pelvis firmly connected to both the drive (Flexed kneee and hip limb) and swinging leg (takeoff leg). The dynamic tensioning of the hip-pelvis musculature in effecting this connection causes some flexion at the knee joint of the swinging leg due to the two joint action of the hamstrings.

This upward rolling action of the pelvis is timed to occur simultaneously with the muscle effort to close the trunk on to the pole. This, when executed correctly, results in the hips making contact with the recoiling pole (actually the straight top grip arm) and momentarily the vaulter feels the ride from the recoil (vaulter and pole moving in synchrony) before spiraling upwards along the line of the chord of the pole into the turn.
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Unread postby dj » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:42 am

good morning

by the way i prefer...

1.... from a fast accelerated swing........like a gaint high bar swing??

and the explainations pvstudent is giving... good stuff

t-mack is actively "swinging" himself high above his grip.. i'm not sure he was "catapulted" at all by the pole.. he just swung fast enough, yes doing work/adding energy, to release as the pole reached it's max "unbend"..

kinda like releasing a discus from the tips of the fingers...

have a great day ;)

good job pvstudent.. kick butt and take names

dj
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