Bottom arm discussion continues...

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dougb
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby dougb » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:08 pm

"At this time Mark was able to do Bubkas with I beleive almost 90 pounds hanging from his hips as dead weight attached to a belt and chain."

Just curious, how may people can do this? Obviously contributes to his vault.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:03 pm

ADTF, I appreciate your reply ... it clarifies a lot of questions we had ...
ADTF Academy wrote: In the video you will see that Mark does in fact tuck, but for no reason except a slow/late extension ..., the timing was off, the tuck was not needed or desired at all. In fact we are still trying to get it out of there on his full approach jumps and have on short approach work.
He does pause a bit, but it's still Petrov ... it's not nearly enough of a tuck to call him a tuck/shooter. And as you said, it's not his intent to tuck, and it's easier to eliminate on short runs. Just scale up from there.

ADTF Academy wrote: Also notice the bottom arm it only slightly straightens because the pole bend opens up, not because he is performing any kind of pushing up action
Yes! There's no time to push. If he takes the time to push, he's delaying his swing. Even if it's just a few milleseconds.

ADTF Academy wrote: ... but what you will notice is the shoulder pull hip extension action I was talking about in 2006. Is it perfect in this video by any means no, it was only after a couple months of learning and working on it.
OK, thanks for the clarification! It looks good!

ADTF Academy wrote: Mark gets launched off poles for these reasons; doesn't over bend the pole (more energy available at the top ... and once initiated continues to apply energy into the pole on the top of his jump ...
:yes: Overbending the pole is a trap that I fell into myself. Far better to keep the "system" moving onwards and upwards, and any slow-down of that is essentially fighting gravity and the whole idea of "continuous motion". Actually, the bend of the pole isn't what's important at all ... it's the quickness and continuity of the body action right thru the extension. This is where (in theory) I agree with Agapit whole-heartedly. Easier said than done tho.

ADTF Academy wrote: The pole had little to no bend in it he performed the entire action correctly and got launched into a full errect handstand off the top of the pole over a bungee at 18' plus with the standards at 80. It was sick. If you can imagine the pole angle towards 18' plus with the standards at 80 cm and Mark fully extended off the top of the pole in the same direction the pole was facing and I mean fully extended not the normal legs starting to drop off.
Well ... he must have had SOME bend! But yeh ... it sounds close to what we're talking about! :yes:

ADTF Academy wrote: Its a matter of converting the timing and execution to the long runs and doing it on stiffer poles and finally longer poles (next year).
:yes: Scaling up.

ADTF Academy wrote: The video posted is the best example I have from a behind shot to show the action I was referring to and being asked about. Obviously it is not a perfect example cause it was not a continuous action through the swing into the shoulder pull, but it shows the shoulder pull action well enough.
Yes ... there's no delay between his takeoff and his swing ... and he doesn't drive the chest thru much at all.

ADTF Academy wrote: At this time Mark was able to do Bubkas with I beleive almost 90 pounds hanging from his hips as dead weight attached to a belt and chain.
I'm not a big fan of Bubka Drills on the highbar, but I can understand why you need strength for the extension part of the vault. I did cleans for this. A more accurate measure of how strong he is in the extension would be his clean PR. What is it? Also, I personally don't think that putting on extra weight to do Bubkas makes them any better, but that's just my personal opinion. I like everything else you talked about! :yes:

But do you agree that Hollis is an exceptional athlete? You could not expect a "mere mortal" to use this same technique ... could you? :confused:
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:07 pm

ADTF Academy wrote:
KirkB wrote:As Bubba says, Petrov also advocates a "shorter swing" ... as per the 6.40 Model.

Kirk


What does a shorter swing mean?

...

When I see shorter swing I think reduce all wasted motions.

...

My beliefs are that a shorter swing is an efficient swing that allows you to cover the pole before it finishes it process of unbending.

:yes: Yes ... I think that's what he meant. :yes:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:22 pm

dougb wrote:"At this time Mark was able to do Bubkas with I beleive almost 90 pounds hanging from his hips as dead weight attached to a belt and chain."

Just curious, how may people can do this? Obviously contributes to his vault.

Doug Balcomb
PV Coach, Colfax HS



This is also to answer Kirkb on the bubka action and cleans. we added this component of training at the time because of the position Mark and most vaulters put themselves into. The Bubka drill tends to simulate getting out of this tucked position and the shoulder pressure (pulling sensation) that is needed. Adding the weight was done because on those poles Mark is on its a lot of force on the hands to fight against so the dead weight simulates the challenge. It made the drill harder.

I'm a big clean guy as well, but the hang clean not the power clean due to the similar position i hope vaulters achieve in the swing and because of the running mechanics and power components. The hang clean starting hands on the hips instead of the ground is exactly what we are trying to do on the jump by setting the swing up so the hands hit near the thighs and not at the ankles/shins. When we execute the clean action correctly it is a great simulating weight room exercise for the top half of the vault as is the romanian dead lifts (straight leg dead lifts). The difference is romanian dead lifts are a slow movement while hang cleans are an explosive movement.

I don't have the actual data in front of me cause I am at home, but I believe in the fall training Mark got up to around 240+ pounds for reps of 4 from the hang clean position so i think he was over 1.5 times his body weight for hang cleans if I recall correctly. Over a 8 to 10 week period it went up from 175 pound reps to 230+ pound reps.

KirkB wrote:
But do you agree that Hollis is an exceptional athlete? You could not expect a "mere mortal" to use this same technique ... could you? :confused:


what does it mean to consider someone an exceptional athlete..... at the time the video was posted his mid was only I believe 54-6... a modest mid but nothing great for an elite his speed was ok last year. This year he has moved to a 57-4 mid and brings it down the runway. I don't think Mark has ever ran an open race or jumped another event. Now that I have said that he has the body frame, wing span and big hands to be a stereotypical elite vaulter.

Honestly, the biggest difference to me is the ability to concentrate and change something. I have worked with a lot of athletes some good and some bad I'm starting to think the exceptional athletes are not necessary the physical specimens, but those that can hear, see and feel something and change it. So with that in mind, yes he is an exceptional athlete. Our focus was speed and worked on running mechanics and speed generation and his mid improved almost 3 feet not from striding out but from proper foot placements and power generation. He worked on it and changed it. Same with the vault technique he is working on.

Now on the same technique question with a mere mortal. My answer to that question is yes I do expect and think anyone can use it just maybe not on the same poles (length and stiffness as Mark). I'm a perfect example back in 2004 I thought about and worked on this model on myself. Changing the way I was taught feeling it out trying this and trying that and got what it is I work on from those changes and the things I wrote in 2006. Honestly, I can do the action well maybe Zach or someone will post a confirmation on this. I was just too much of a punk (clean way of putting it) to get on big enough sticks, but to swing long and extend into an inverted position with the technique I am talking about is not hard if your mind can grasp it and your willing to do it. The fundamental question is can the vaulter in the end grip high enough on a stiff enough pole as Mark did. I actually have 2 females I am starting to work with that I think will be able to pull it off as well :) watch out a girl that can get on a long stiff pole and actually has a top!!!!

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby fx » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:35 pm

Hey guys I have a question about the extension after a swing to the hips versus after a swing to the shins or some other part of the body. I understand the logic behind why it's good to swing up so your hips meet your hands, but what confuses me is how to generate enough power from this position when you shoulder pull/hip extend. My aim has been to make sure my hips are always moving up, and I am sometime able to swing so that my hips meet my hands at the end of the swing. However, when this happens, I always feel that I generate much less power at the top during extension than if I swung my shins up to the pole and extended from there. It's almost like trying to get a powerful swing without kicking your leg back into a stretched position first. My best theory is that my physical capabilities are too weak to add energy in from this position, but that if I get more explosive and my hands can move faster, then ultimately this may be the better way to do it. True?

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:56 pm

I guess everything is done with an understanding of what your goal is. Is the goal to do work (physical action) or be efficient (move through the extension and flyaway smooth). Yes you can do a lot more work from your shins than from your thighs, but our goal is to go high not do work. The truth is more people that do work from their shins usually end up falling off into a flag position anyways because the pole they are on isn't stiff enough and doing this work causes them to fall off and they clear a bar 1-2.5 feet over their hand hold for a guy; elites up near 3 feet simply because they are on stiffer poles. Example 15' hand hold is 14'4" effective grip and they can clear usually around 15'4" to 16'4" on that pole. Elite with hand hold of 17' and effective grip of 16'4 they can clear around 18'4 to 19'4 on average. The good ones are on stiff enough poles with technique to get around 4 feet of blow (flyaway). Mark just went 5.65 in Prague hand hold 15'7" with effective grip of 14'11" and cleared 18'6 so 3'7" fly away. His 5.75 jump was with a hand hold of 15'10" with effective grip of 15'2" and cleared 18'10 so 3'8" flyaway. To go higher he will either need to get more efficient, get on a stiffer pole or grip higher. We are aiming for the first two.

Swing to the thighs puts you in a better position to continuously roll the pole into the pit allow you to rotate stiffer poles. It also allows you the ability to cover the pole easier hence a faster swing. In our system the energy left in the pole on top is what throws you not your strength. Your strength is used to stay in line with the pole not to launch yourself. Therefore, if you can rotate a stiffer pole it will have more energy remaining in it to launch you thus greater blow. We want to beat the pole, hence cover it and start the turn before it finishes its unbending process. This will allow a vaulter to stay tight and in line with the pole and get launched like an arrow.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby BethelPV » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:16 pm

FX, my question to you would be when you have your best jumps, do you feel like you are doing a lot of work to get over the bar, or does it just seem easy? I know everytime i have cleared a PR, the jump just feels smooth and easy to complete, like I don't even have to work that hard to make it. The more relaxed, and the more efficient your jump is, the less you will have to work, and in the end the higher you will jump. This is something I am still learning and trying to get the hang of. But i would be willing to bet your best jump felt almost effortless after you left the ground, like it just happened automatically... :idea:
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:04 pm

Excellent points made by ADTFA and Bethel. :yes:

Take a look at this thread about Christian Tamminga's highbar drills (especially his shoot-to-a-handstand on the highbar at the tail end of the vid, and his PV vid) ... and tell us what you think.

http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17987

It seems like he was TRAINING for the kind of 6.40 Model pull we're discussing here, but his actual vaulting doesn't reflect this. :confused:

I'm sure he's retired now, but he still does a mighty fine shoot-to-a-handstand from a near-hang! :yes:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby achtungpv » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:52 pm

BethelPV wrote:FBut i would be willing to bet your best jump felt almost effortless after you left the ground, like it just happened automatically... :idea:


Tarasov said he knew the instant he took off if he was going to clear the bar.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby ashcraftpv » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:36 am

achtungpv wrote:
BethelPV wrote:FBut i would be willing to bet your best jump felt almost effortless after you left the ground, like it just happened automatically... :idea:


Tarasov said he knew the instant he took off if he was going to clear the bar.


yep, my best jump days I felt like I was on auto-pilot. Mind was clear, steps were on, jumps were effortless, and I knew as soon as I left the ground whether I was over or not.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:47 am

ashcraftpv wrote: yep, my best jump days I felt like I was on auto-pilot. Mind was clear, steps were on, jumps were effortless, and I knew as soon as I left the ground whether I was over or not.

Ditto with me in college. My body motions after I left the ground were so ingrained in my muscle memory that they were "automatic" ... guaranteed to work properly ... as long as my takeoff was on.

In fact, when I think back even further ... to my HS career, when I had terrible technique (blocking out - didn't know any better) ... when I got my PR as a junior ... and a higher one as a senior ... I'm not actually sure how I did it ... but it seemed effortless ... compared to my usual vaults where I really struggled to muscle up over the bar.

I can't actually remember the details of those 2 vaults, but thinking back to what MUST have happened, I'm sure that I didn't block out nearly as much as usual, so my body swung much more naturally up and over the bar. But since I didn't reallize this at the time, I didn't do it intentionally. I remember driving home with my coach after one of these PRs, and he asked me what I did differently, and I told him that I didn't know ... everything just seemed to gel.

Yes ... my HS PRs were ACCIDENTS! I "forgot" to block out! :D

Kirk
Last edited by KirkB on Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby fx » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:49 am

I agree with you all about the feeling of effortlessness, but my problem is every jump has come to feel like this, and I think I should be doing something new so that I can improve instead of staying the same.


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