visual cues while vertical

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straightup
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visual cues while vertical

Unread postby straightup » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:00 am

hey does anyone have some visual cues to clean up the top end of my vault? like right hand to left shin etc. thanks
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:52 pm

If you're asking about visual cues that you can analyze post-jump from a video, then I like to look at the "flat-back" position, and how many frames it takes to pass thru this position. The idea is to pass thru it quickly - the quicker the better - and keep the hips moving. You can compare your good jumps to your bad jumps by counting the frames. You can also compare your jumps to your peers (and elites) by counting frames.

If you're passing thru the flat-back position in a minimal number of frames, that's a clear indication that the momentum that you developed from your downswing and upswing (before and after the Active-I position) are resulting in a quick inversion. On the contrary, if you're stuck in the flat-back position for too many frames, that's a clear indication that you've "tucked" and now you're going to have to pause - to wait for the pole to roll to vertical - and then "shoot". Obviously, that technique isn't very good - not very Petrovish.

If you're asking about a visual cue while you're in the air, I would still try to sense the position of my hips - cuing off of them rather than off of any other body part. If your hips aren't above your shoulders, then you're dead-in-the-water. Keep those hips moving! The rest of your body doesn't matter as much - it just "comes along for the ride" if you know what I mean.

And again, to keep those hips moving, you need to have a strong downswing and a strong upswing. Anything after that become inefficient muscle-movements to salvage a bad vault (bad swinging technique).

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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:01 pm

Straightup, Sounds like your a right handed vaulter. I would never think of it as bringing my right hand to my left shin. That's promoting rowing like many coaches unfortunately do. Rowing makes it impossible to fully invert like you should. Rather think of it as bringing your left shin to your right hand. That way you stay with the chord of the pole and can invert all the way. Also Most vaulters do not get their head and shoulders down to fully form an Inverted-I.
As far as visual cues go while inverting there are two that I would focus on. 1) I would watch the swing foot come to the top hand like you mentioned' while in the L-position and
2) I would look at the bottom hand from Inverted-I. Bubka does this. If you can see your hand that means you got you shoulders and head back far enough into the Inverted-I Position. 2-great visual cues.

I
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby dj » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:20 pm

hey

the top hand, right hand fist should go to the left groin, actully the hips/legs should swing fast and high so the right fist goes to the left groin...

this is the correct swing move to make...

dj

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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:10 pm

dj, I agree with you that this is an excellent cue and I did think about that, but should that not be more of a feel cue at that point? Straightup ask about visual cues.
Is it appropriate to try to look up that far from the inverted-I to your groin? I would think it would be more appropriate to have your head straight down vertical under your body at that point? So that raises the question how then can you look at the bottom hand from that position then? Well you can't! My point is, and I should have clarified, as you begin the bottom hand push toward the pit, the hips are being propelled upward along the pole. By looking for the bottom hand, that in itself will help you keep your shoulders and head down straight with the body and the visual cue of the bottom hand as it comes into view will provide a reference point for keeping your body in line with the pole as it leaves it.
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:26 pm

KirkB wrote:... I would still try to sense the position of my hips ...

I purposely worded my advice this way for a good reason - the vaulter should not be glancing up, down, or sideways during the vault. Rather, he should be SENSING where his body is in relation to the pole, and in relation to his position in the air.

This sense of where you are "on the pole" and "in the air" is best learned on highbar and tramp, and is not something that you can easily force yourself to do during a vault by any simple visual cue. It is more of an inner-ear sense of where your body is in relation to gravitational pull and in relation to the rolling of the pole than anything else.

A coach OBSERVES where the vaulter is in the air, whereas a vaulter SENSES where he is. :idea:

This concept can be taken one step further ...

A vaulter should not LOOK at the bar. Instead, he should SENSE where the bar is. Of course, this is easier and more practical the higher you vault. But the idea is that you should KNOW where to shoot your legs (mostly straight up), based on your SENSE of your body position in the air (NOT based on where the bar is).

If you hit the bar on the way up, move the standards back or raise your grip or use a stiffer pole. If you hit the bar on the way down, lower your grip, or use a lighter pole (do NOT move your standards in).

It's not QUITE that simple, but I think you get the idea.

Kirk Bryde
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:28 pm

The fact is, You don't HAVE to glance any ware! Your head remains neutral throughout the vault. As you come into the L-position you ALREADY ARE LOOKING at the top hand. Make sure the swing leg shin comes all the way to it. Also make sure your hip makes contact with your top arm elbow. ANOTHER FEEL CUE, by the way! To make sure you COMPLETELY invert. Your body already has begun the turn which is assisted by the bottom hand push and so you ALREADY ARE LOOKING at the bottom hand (Providing you keep your shoulders back, and looking for that hand will help you do that)!
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:48 pm

Anywhere! Sorry! LOL
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:51 am

PVDaddy wrote:Make sure the swing leg shin comes all the way to it. Also make sure your hip makes contact with your top arm elbow. ANOTHER FEEL CUE, by the way! To make sure you COMPLETELY invert. Your body already has begun the turn which is assisted by the bottom hand push and so you ALREADY ARE LOOKING at the bottom hand (Providing you keep your shoulders back, and looking for that hand will help you do that)!

Straightup, I apologize for PVDaddy giving you all this extra information. None of it is necessary, and tag-team coaching doesn't work on PVP any better than it works at the track - especially when the 2 coaches have 2 opposing views of how to coach, and especially if they're talking over each other.

If he had vaulted higher than 10.5 feet, he would have known that it's IMPOSSIBLE for your hip to make contact with your top arm elbow! :no:

If you prefer to take my advice, please let me know, and I'll continue to give it to you.

However, if you prefer to listen to PVDaddy, please let him know, and I'll bow out.

It's not going to work very well for you if we keep giving you advice in too much detail for your PR level, and especially if we give you conflicting advice.

Kirk Bryde
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:13 am

I did mean to say bottom arm elbow. My mistake. I agree, the hip should make contact with the BOTTOM arm elbow.
Yup, I only vaulted 10.5 feet with no coaching and the only pole we had was way overrated for my weight, so I basically had to stiff pole.
No excuses though, I was not that good. I was lucky to beat Altius. But he's a better coach. There's a point there Kurt.
I thought this was an open forum?
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:37 am

Wow, its late, I'm tired and now you got me confused? I said it correctly to begin with! Maybe KirKs saying its not EXACTLY at the top arm elbow or something? If not, it's very close!
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Re: visual cues while vertical

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:24 am

Straightup, in this pic (the larger pic) ...

https://plus.google.com/photos/115885108345672481185/albums/5862500358639558273?authkey=COaVtLGG3rzcQw

... please take a close look at my body position and my elbows. My hips are moving rapidly upwards, in unison with the pole straightening. Visualize the path that my body must take to clear this bar.

My cue at this point in my vault is to finish my extension by continuing to drive my hips skyward. Nothing else. I have also not turned yet, and I won't until my hips are above my top hand.

Kirk Bryde
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!


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