Bottom arm discussion continues...

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Mon May 03, 2010 5:29 pm

How does one work on this. It seems very difficult to vault and go "ok now I'm pushing up...now lets relax that arm, bend it a little bit, but not too much... now lets extend..." I don't mean to sound rude or sarcastic, but as an athlete or a coach you need to be able to boil down these complex actions into a few cues and mental images. What would you recommend for a proper takeoff? For myself I think of driving both arms up at the plant while focusing on "run, jump, swing." The resultant of this can be seen in this thread http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtop ... 39&t=19588. The video at the bottom is a better view. My guess/hope has always been that if you plant with the arms high and straight, with a forwards lean and a free takeoff with a strong upwards impulse, the vaulter's velocity and the stiffness of the pole will create the correct position "automatically" as long as the vaulter does not go out of his/her way to push (In particular forwards) with the bottom arm. Yes, no, maybe? Is what I'm doing in line with Petrov's statements or do I need to make adjustments (aside from the obvious, like the fact that I'm inside)?
-Nick

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby chasing6 » Mon May 03, 2010 6:20 pm

rainbowgirl28 wrote:
Polevaulter2012 wrote:Bubka was not a tuck and shoot vaulter and he kept his bottom arm pushing up.You are correct that the pole will bend more but it wont delay your swing if you are on a big enough pole to where it doesnt over bend. Also Kirk, how are you supposed to bend the pole with out a fulcrum? you jumped with both hands on the pole right?


I've bent the pole doing a full vault with a closed grip, no fulcrum there. That's not how it works.


I do this often to show young vaulters that you don't need your bottom hand to bent the pole and jump high. It will bend when energy is correctly transfered from your run/body into the pole. No bottom arm pressure needed.

(Having a closed grip also makes it very easy to swing if you have a free take off, but that's for another discussion.)

tsorenson wrote:He is definitely also clear on the fact that the bottom arm must be straight at takeoff and drive up during the first support phase, then bend up to 90 degrees.


Taking off with a straight arm with a high pole angle (resulting from a low grip, tall vaulter or some combination of the two) makes a free take off impossible. With a grip around 5.15m it seems like it would be relatively easy, and I would be willing to bet there aren't many elite men (and even fewer elite women) who have a grip:height ratio that would allow a free take off while keeping the bottom arm completely straight. Granted, I haven't taken the time to go through video to substantiate any of this, but maybe one of you have. :D
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby charlie » Mon May 03, 2010 9:02 pm

There is 3 ways to plant!!! 2 are wrong ( Straight arm BLOCK)& (Clutch) or the ELITE way( Early -Tall- Bent arm PRESS Support) I have successfully used this plant to coach 20 hs state champions in the last THREE years in Georgia!!!!

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Tue May 04, 2010 1:08 am

tsorenson wrote: Check out the Petrov speech ... He states that having a straight bottom arm after takeoff will result in a swing BELOW, rather than ABOVE the pole.

What does he mean by "BELOW, rather than ABOVE the pole"? :confused:

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Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Tue May 04, 2010 1:32 am

charlie wrote:There is 3 ways to plant!!! 2 are wrong ( Straight arm BLOCK)& (Clutch) or the ELITE way( Early -Tall- Bent arm PRESS Support)

Charlie, what's the "clutch plant"? :confused:

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Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby altius » Tue May 04, 2010 3:20 am

"now lets relax that arm, bend it a little bit, but not too much... now lets extend". It is not that complex - try reading page 240+ of BTB2.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Tue May 04, 2010 4:26 am

KirkB wrote:
charlie wrote:There is 3 ways to plant!!! 2 are wrong ( Straight arm BLOCK)& (Clutch) or the ELITE way( Early -Tall- Bent arm PRESS Support)

Charlie, what's the "clutch plant"? :confused:

Kirk


Probably what most beginners do naturally...

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Robert schmitt » Tue May 04, 2010 11:15 am

KirkB wrote:
tsorenson wrote: Check out the Petrov speech ... He states that having a straight bottom arm after takeoff will result in a swing BELOW, rather than ABOVE the pole.

What does he mean by "BELOW, rather than ABOVE the pole"? :confused:

Kirk


I thought the quote was more like "result in a swing below the pole rather than at the pole." My take on it was the fulcrum or radius point of the swing- with a stiff bottom arm the fulcrum point is lower--say at the hip making the effective radius the hip to toe of the swing leg. with a soft bottom arm the fulcrum is the top hand making the radius the top and to the toe of the take off foot.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby tsorenson » Tue May 04, 2010 12:49 pm

I wanted to add something important to my comment about having the bottom arm completely straight at takeoff...this is Petrov talking about elite male vaulters who are taking off at 14'+ and gripping 16+. When it comes to the female vaulters, he explains that the bottom arm is bent slightly at takeoff due to the different angle of the pole, and that it is not a "problem." This is an important issue because when coaches model from elite male vaulters there is a tendency to "see" the bottom arm doing something that may not be possible with younger vaulters using lower grips.
However, just because it is bent doesn't mean that it isn't doing anything...the tricep and pectoral girdle are engaged throughout a dynamic range of motion.

Kirk, what I meant by the swing being above vs. below the pole is this: allowing the bottom arm to bend and the shoulders elastically stretch up and back allows a much more powerful swing that doesn't stop until your legs are pointed back down the runway, above the bent pole. The effect of "re-engaging" the shoulders from this elastic position is what I believe Petrov was after during this phase. The bottom arm straightens back out as the shoulders re-engage during the swing.
Swinging with the bottom arm locked out the whole time misses out on this advantage and results in a lower swing, below the pole, often resulting in a tuck to catch up to the recoiling pole. If you take off under you are forced to vault this way, unless you bend the bottom arm at the plant to allow for a "pseudo-free" takeoff.

The beauty of Petrov's model is that the top end of the vault really doesn't matter that much, you just get shot above your grip in a nice parabola and land deep. Look at Markov's vault in Edmonton!

I enjoyed watching this video because now hopefully people can stop arguing about what Bubka and Petrov were trying to do, and instead ask why?

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Polevaulter2012 » Thu May 06, 2010 11:31 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FnmKVwd ... re=related
She is coached by Petrov, So there you guys go, You use your bottom arm.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Thu May 06, 2010 1:14 pm

Do you really think this video hasn't been posted on PvP before?
-Nick

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby tsorenson » Thu May 06, 2010 1:32 pm

I agree, Scott...I am definitely not saying that the bottom arm is not used. It is used every bit as much as the top arm!
Did you watch the Petrov video from Reno?
His speech is long and hard to understand with the translation, but he is very clear that the bottom arm must be straight at takeoff (or at least straight enough to be applying a perpindicular force to the pole for those with a lower grip height) to transfer the energy of the run into the pole, and then it should bend up to 90 degrees during the first support phase, when you are setting up for your swing. That's all I'm trying to get at...he says you don't want it to be straight during the start of the swing or you will end up beneath the pole instead of above it.
Hope the season is going well, best wishes to you and your team!
Tom


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