Question re: mid-mark chart

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Question re: mid-mark chart

Unread postby Aggietom » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:00 pm

OK....I keep seeing references to determining the best six-step mid off the runway. We do this, but I have been doing the typical approach run length and having it measured at takeoff (whatever their takeoff foot to takeoff foot was for 8, 10, etc strides.)

So if a girl runs 10 lefts while simulating pole drop and plant, is she not traveling at 5 ft per stride on average? That would be 10-6 potential?

She can move roughly 10-6 to vertical from 6 steps.

Is there another way to use the chart? I saw that DJ says figure out the 6 step mid and then run a # of strides back. So how do we get the 6-step mid? Measure 6 steps off track?

Thanks.

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Re: Question re: mid-mark chart

Unread postby scootz42 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:56 am

Sorry Aggietom, I don't have a answer for you but I would like to get involved on this topic and add a few questions myself.

Somewhere I saw a topic where you would start a vaulter at the beginning or or close to the beginning bar height of Johnson's or Bubba's chart and progress them through each bar height when they correctly hit their stride/take off marks and pole grip height. Sound like a nice test but here are my questions:
1) Will there be much stride difference between a vaulter that's 5'2" and someone thats 6'2"? Is the chart for an average height person?
2) Will you start at the lower bars by straight polling and slowly start bending the pole and progress to bigger/longer poles?
3) how long is your run? 7L, 8L....?
4) Is the take off mark on the chart for an specific height person? Obviously there will be a difference between a 5' and 6' persons take-off step.

I'm an advocate for using a mid mark. Looking back at some of the vaulters that I coached in the past, using a mid would have told me a lot! BUT I'm not so convinced that every vaulters is the same(mid mark). This past weekend at the Summit, I heard a lot of "look for a good run average" meaning once you find their mid mark with good technique and results, use this average!

Sorry in advance, I'm sure this topic has been beat up many times in the past, but I couldn't find the answer.

Thanks,
Scott

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Re: Question re: mid-mark chart

Unread postby Getvertical_PV » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:08 pm

I've had good luck with DJ's chart after I take a lot out of the table - it is too complicated.

The only factors that matter are grip height and mid mark - from a 6L it had been pretty darn close the majority of the time. As speed is a factor of stride length and stride frequency we find that shorter jumpers are more explosive and thereby increase their stride length as a factor of that explosive speed. We also see that taller runners are less explosive thereby their stride length is more a factor of their height as opposed to their speed. (Of course there are exceptions to this like in Usain Bolt)

So if you look at the grip height of the vaulter the mid on his chart is pretty spot on. Remove the other columns - it is all unnecessary noise. Interesting, but noise to what you are trying to achieve.

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Re: Question re: mid-mark chart

Unread postby Aggietom » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:59 pm

OK...So you go by grip height to vertical, have them go to mid-mark, and then run out the number of steps that remain?

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Re: Question re: mid-mark chart

Unread postby scootz42 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:41 pm

Aggietom,

I would start by taking the mid mark step (say 35' for a 10'6" grip) find their take off mark holding 10'6" (let's guess for now 7'6"). Divide the difference by 6 (35' minus 7'6"= 27'6" ÷ 6 = roughly 4'6") 4'6" for each stride back from 35'.

Their first step to make a stride of 4'6" might be a effort for them, I think this step can be adjusted. Their step will be more consistent if they start fairly explosive.

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Re: Question re: mid-mark chart

Unread postby dj » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:09 pm

Six step…."MID" mark…

Most of what has been said sounds like it is logical and correct.

The six step "MID" is, in its simplest form, a coaches check mark to see if the athlete is consistent and "correct" six step from the plant/takeoff .. increasing the possibilities that "less" (or no) steering will take place, less or no "chopping" or stretching of the steps takes place, giving the vaulter the best chance to plant/takeoff correctly and the correct speed and posture for the grip and pole being used.

I set cones on the track for the last six steps with the "lengths" being progressive for the level of vaulter that is training. Ie.. 10 foot vaulters will run 4-8, 4-10, 5 foot last six strides… I do run backs from the six stride to get a start make for 10 (5 left), 12, 14, etc steps total run…

The chart is based on a 6 foot vaulter to do the math from "reach" to get the "hypotenuse" to give you a takeoff point for that grip .. please don't waste time re-calculating the numbers because of a tall or short vaulter. You are wasting time and not coaching.

Use the "MID" to grip" as your guide… and then coach. If they stretch and are "under"… move them up and tell them to run and plant correctly.. if the chop and slow down, move them out…

Move the grip up when they can handle it… and don't always move the "MID" unless they are going to run faster, with the higher grip, and "run under"…

to many "interpretations" have been made by others of my chart... many have given a misconception, muddied the waters, confused the real simplicity of what and how it should be used… always coach from SAID (Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands)progressive Overload, Progression and KISS………..

dj

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Re: Question re: mid-mark chart

Unread postby coachjvinson » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:34 pm

Aggietom wrote:...So if a girl runs 10 lefts while simulating pole drop and plant, is she not traveling at 5 ft per stride on average? That would be 10-6 potential?

She can move roughly 10-6 to vertical from 6 steps.
Thanks.


The aforementioned quote needs clarification...
I will allow you to elaborate in order that I do not misinterpret your ideas...

Specifically,
Aggietom wrote:...So if a girl runs 10 lefts while simulating pole drop and plant, is she not traveling at 5 ft per stride on average?


"Lefts" and feet are not equivalent...
In the context of your post 10 lefts is equivalent with 10 strides...
My question and my point is this
Are you stating that the vaulter in question has a stride length of 10' feet and therefore each "step" or each 1/2 stride is equivalent to 5' feet?

To state my point another way, on any given day I can be working with 5 vaulters, all of whom are working on pole plant drills from "10 Lefts/Strides"...
Each one of the aforementioned vaulters will have a natural stride length that varies from one another which may or my not be equal to 10' feet...
The four most recent vaulters that I have tracked all have stride lengths (aka "Lefts) of 11.5', 12', 13', and 14' respectively; therefore, each of their mids, velocities, and grip potentials vary even though they are all working on runs from 3,4,6,8 or 9 "Lefts" during any given workout on any given day....

Please clarify or let me know if I need to articulate further...
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Re: Question re: mid-mark chart

Unread postby Aggietom » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:07 pm

dj - thanks for the info. That makes a lot of sense. People are using the chart differently and I thought I would come on here and check it out.

vinson - I'm sorry about that post. It was sloppy. I did it between classes at school last week.

She is running FIVE lefts in 50 feet. So that is 10 strides for her in 50 feet. This is off runway and it includes her current pole drop and plant and jump as it would be if she were really vaulting.

She has since begun running 52' for 10 strides. So she is getting faster. I can get her to bring an 11' grip (or maybe 10'11") safely into the pit with no bungee and no swing. She stays behind the pole and get some natural flex without forcing it.

Once the bungee goes up, everything goes to crap. She gets up to 8-6ish maybe 9' and is shallow. So she can't clear anything when standards are at 28-30".

I've been coaching the vent for 7 years (only 4-5 where I really understood the basics) and now I'm trying to get into the intricacies of the event. I've always emphasized getting the approach run and plant down first and worrying about swinging/inversion later. We work on staying behind the pole and keeping the plant tall and the body "long".

Anyway, her stride rate and grip height to vertical implied she should be able to jump pretty well. And it could just be that she needs more time to become accustomed to the grip height with that fast of an approach. She is very consistent with the approach and doesn't deviate much. She will occasionally reach toward the end of a jumping session when she is tired, but that is about it.

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Re: Question re: mid-mark chart

Unread postby coachjvinson » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:19 am

okay, sounds much better now that you clarified...
going from the information and the description, I am inclined to suggest everything to support swing development and it's subsequent incorporation into the vault...
Also, plenty of shorter run(3L) work on relatively stiff poles: not that 5Lefts is a long run (although it maybe a longer run developmentally for the vaulter in question)
The short run pole selection does not have to be terribly stiff, the nice thing about this is that when a developing vaulter develops the swing and timing the pole will give them feed back... Having said that, straight pole/stiff pole workouts are great to incorporate for the same rationale: every movement must support the swing momentum and pole rotation. Once there are good swing mechanics developmentally for the vaulter in question, move the run back to 4Lefts and repeat, then with 5Ls etc...
With proper swing mechanics, the same 11' grip past vertical will move quicker and deeper into the pit: feel free to leave the bungee and bar down while swinging into the pit as a progression to bar clearances if it is helpful. One less item to distract the vaulter at this stage: forgive me if I am restating items that have been covered or that you have already incorporated.
Brainstorming so to speak...
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Re: Question re: mid-mark chart

Unread postby dj » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:47 am

I think the "numbers" were "scrambled" or misunderstood somewhere in this "chat"…

10 lefts would be 20 strides/steps.... beginners are not running that length..

Someone with a 11 foot grip would have a six step "mid" of approx.. 37 feet/11.27 meters…

St…r…l…r…L…R…L…R…L…R…L………….box

10 steps.. 5 lefts..

dj

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Re: Question re: mid-mark chart

Unread postby Vaultingman » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:02 pm

Hi All, I used DJ's suggested way and the chart, never used a mid check mark before, but after a few attempts in last weekend's competition it work very well and I jumped a seassons best and highest since 2005.
Need a bigger pole now as hand grip will need to be raised!!!

Thank's to all who share their knowledge!


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