visual cues while vertical

[altius]

Well 'straightup' - if you can make sense of all of that, you should take up astrophysics.

I just thank whoever, that I didn't really need to know any of that information/knowledge/wisdom to coach in the track and field wilderness of Adelaide.

[PVDaddy]

Negative Inversion(pvp).JPG (16.46 KiB) Viewed 10301 times

Kirk said:

If he had vaulted higher than 10.5 feet, he would have known that it's IMPOSSIBLE for your hip to make contact with your top arm elbow!

[PVDaddy]

Visual cue of swing leg shin to top of pole

visualcueshin.JPG (10.72 KiB) Viewed 10286 times

Note that top arm stays with chord of pole because he did not row.

[straightup]

wow alot of responses! i think that inderstand now! i am gonna upload a video to the review section of it! thanks guys!

[PVDaddy]

Visual cue bottom hand and pole

visualcueBhand.JPG (11.71 KiB) Viewed 10283 times

[KirkB]

Standing vertically (or fully inverted), the distance from my elbow to my hip bone is ~4", and I'm about the same height as Bubka.

Even if you quibbled and said that 4" is "close enough", it is NOT a good visual cue for a vaulter to focus on - it's merely a single frame of a vid - a transitionary position - that you pass THRU.

To say that this is a good visual cue, you need at least one credible vaulter that tells you that. Visual cues are decided by VAULTERS - not by amateur biomechanics who simply watch vids without talking to the athletes in the vid.

There is not any good VISUAL cue for a vaulter in this position. The MENTAL cue (based on my own personal experience, as depicted in the pic that I provided) is that he should feel his hips rising vertically, along the chord of the pole. This is accomplished by all the good hard work in the bottom half of the vault - the downswing and upswing but especially the downswing (to the chord).

Kirk Bryde

[PVDaddy]

Kirk said:

Standing vertically (or fully inverted), the distance from my elbow to my hip bone is ~4", and I'm about the same height as Bubka.
Even if you quibbled and said that 4" is "close enough", it is NOT a good visual cue for a vaulter to focus on - it's merely a single frame of a vid - a transitionary position - that you pass THRU.

To say that this is a good visual cue[/b], you need at least one credible vaulter that tells you that. Visual cues are decided by VAULTERS - not by amateur biomechanics who simply watch vids without talking to the athletes in the vid.

More personal attacks Kirk?

Also a silly DISTRACTION about semantics . I consider the waist to be part of the hips. Look at his waist, its in direct line with his elbow. I think your being a bit dogmatic here. The whole point was to encourage a full inversion with a cue. This is especially important when one considers that most vaulters never get close and a lot of that has to do with the fact that they bail to early. Having a FEEL cue here would solve a lot of that problem. Whether it's a " transitionary position - that you pass THRU " or not, you pass through it, And FEEL it! It is also More more than just one frame. What part of inversion is not a transitionary position anyway?

Furthermore, I would appreciate it, if you took the time to actually read my post, BEFORE you comment! Three times you said I called it a visual cue, when I called it a FEEL cue

My quote:

Also make sure your hip makes contact with your top arm elbow. ANOTHER FEEL CUE, by the way!

Then you said to me:

There is not any good VISUAL cue for a vaulter in this position

I find it strange that your the one telling me that, when I was the one that made that clear? Again not reading!

My quote to Dj:

Is it appropriate to try to look up that far from the inverted-I to your groin? I would think it would be more appropriate to have your head straight down vertical under your body at that point? So that raises the question how then can you look at the bottom hand from that position then? Well you can't!

You said

There is not any good VISUAL cue for a vaulter in this position. The MENTAL cue (based on my own personal experience, as depicted in the pic that I provided) is that he should feel his hips rising vertically, along the chord of the pole. This is accomplished by all the good hard work in the bottom half of the vault - the downswing and upswing but especially the downswing (to the chord)

Straightups original question was is there any VISUAL cues you can provide while going into and through inversion? I provided him with THREE and in addition two feel cues for a total of 5 cues. So far you have provide him with zero VISUAL cues.
Of course, I agree with you, that knowing the position of you hips is what getting vertical correctly is all about, You must be mentally aware of that.

EVERYTYTHING leading up to the rock back effect your abillity to FULLY Invert, has that not been my Emphasis all along? The vaulter needs to be aware of the position of hips along the pole! It is ALL critical, but that was not the question?

I also believe your photos show you to be WAY behind the pole! They are not great examples.

[KirkB]

Why does every thread need to turn into an argument with you, PVD? [sigh]

I gave Straightup some sound advice - my advice to him was to be more cognizant of the mental cues than any visual ones, and I explained what the mental cues were - whereas you have not added any additional value to this thread. Instead, you have turned this thread into another argumentative-PVDaddy-rant!

You seem to think that every thread on this Advanced Forum is a competition to see if you can outdo other posters' comments. Even when you're wrong, you insist that you're right, and then you invariably turn your differences of opinion into arguments. On all your posts, you're so predictable and so off-base it's ridiculous.

If you think that me calling you an amateur biomechanic is a personal attack, then I can't help you. It's not an insult, it's the truth. You ARE an amateur biomechanic aren't you? You're not a professional biomechanic, like Peter McGinnis or Jan Johnson. And you're certainly not a coach or a vaulter. You are simply the father of an aspiring vaulter, and the grandson of a very good masters vaulter. And that's not meant as a personal attack either, so don't take it that way. I'm simply asking you where you think your perceived credibility comes from, other than your claim that you've analyzed thousands of PV vids?

Sheer volume doesn't count ... years and years of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is what counts!

I also notice that you have avoided my comment re the need to get direct feedback from the vaulters in the vids - to know what their visual cues are. This is how coaches that have not vaulted learn how to coach. This is how Altius became an expert coach and author. Good coaches (those that post in the Advanced Technique forum) do not simply watch PV vids - they coach REAL vaulters for years and years! You have ignored my comment about this because you have no idea what any vaulter's true visual cues are!

If you don't know, then DON'T JUST GUESS! Straightup asked for GOOD, SOLID advice - not advice from someone that makes it up as he goes along. [sigh]

Kirk Bryde

[PVDaddy]

LOL Lets not fight anymore Kirk! I know you have no respect for my opinions and that's fine. You ask about my credential on several occasions so I provided my athletic accomplishment as a coach and athlete, and shared a few accomplishments about Family members I am proud of, that's all. I don't think its a big deal at all that I was Allstate on two occasions in wrestling, and broke our school record either. Its since been re-broke. Seriously its small potatoes compared to many achievements here. I did work hard though. I was fortunate enough to have some very hard working athletes and coached 7 to State champions and four to national champions. No it was not the Pole vault. It's true that most all of my knowledge of pole vault has only come from reading countless hours on hear from many others experiences, articles, and videos and have formulated my own opinions as we all do. I have also shared a few of my own thoughts and theories along the way. Have you had any luck coaching the pole vault? Would not be surprised if you had, with all your experience and knowledge. I have some opportunities to do some volunteer pole vault assistant coaching with my nephew (who set a school record last year as a junior. Its only 12-6. He is capable of much better with proper technique) and another school. Its going to be very hard to make the time, but, I Think I just may give it a go.

[KirkB]

I coached for a few years in the 1970s, with 4 of my young proteges going on (later) to win Canadian Championships. My most notable protege was Dave Steen, 1988 Olympics Bronze medalist in Decathlon. He was only 14-15 yrs old when I coached him. Ironically, his dad (Don Steen) was my 1972 Team Canada coach.

In the past few years, I coached Pogo Stick in a few practices and meets in Abbotsford, Bellingham, and Langley, but that's all.

When I coach, I go by how the athlete FEELS - not how he LOOKS. They "get it" better that way.

I highly recommend that you seek out opportunities to coach - you'll find them rewarding. I know I did, but I just didn't have the time to devote to it once my first son was born.

Peace.

Kirk Bryde

[PVDaddy]

That's pretty outstanding Kirk!
I have been thinking a lot lately about how the chord of the pole is actually THE POLE (like a non flexible pole) similar to Altius phrase " a series of non-flexible poles" and how important it is to stay with it throughout the vault from c to inverted-I. At least i think it is? It seems that Bubka does? I think of an extended line running through the top arm as an indicator of whether you are?" It seems that many vaulters either don't know that, or forget that for some reason when they get to inverted-I? Or is it simply that most vaulters can't make it that far? Do you agree that you can't swing any further than the top arm? If the top arm is the chord of the pole, does it not make sense to always invert as far as you can? Is there any danger in doing that as long as you do not let go of the pole? Should that not always be the goal? If you don't make it that far you could still make the turn and flyaway. Do you think most vaulters mistakenly begin flyaway to early out of fear? Of course rowers and tuck and shooters can never get there. I just wonder if making contact with the top arm in your inversion should not always be the goal?

[KirkB]

If the top arm is the chord of the pole, does it not make sense to always invert as far as you can? Is there any danger in doing that as long as you do not let go of the pole? Should that not always be the goal? If you don't make it that far you could still make the turn and flyaway. Do you think most vaulters mistakenly begin flyaway to early out of fear?

The main concept that you're missing is that the roll of the pole is based on takeoff speed and grip height (I actually mean the grip height of the CHORD of the pole). That will determine whether you land in the PLZ or not. If you're not going to land in the PLZ, then you can't "invert as far as you can". There is definite danger in doing that.

I don't thing vaulters begin flyaway too early out of fear. I think it's because they're gripping too high or using too stiff of a pole. Or of course, not running fast enough on takeoff or not having an efficient vault as well - all of these things combined. All these things are complex if looked at individually, but it all boils down to where you CONSISTENTLY land in the pit. That is the one single metric that the vaulter should focus on.

There is such a HUGE advantage to landing in the PLZ (actually, the BACK of the PLZ) that that should be the first objective on every vault. It's even a more important objective than clearing the bar, believe it or not. Clearing the bar will come - later - but landing in the PLZ is what GUARANTEES that you'll have a safe vault and can extend like hell off the top of the pole without stalling out. Every time.

Kirk Bryde